Predestination

[chocolateismybestfriend]

I think, We all agree we are predestinated right?
We're either of God, or we are not. There is no inbetween.

I'm trying to wrap my head around why?
God is all powerful, why isnt the whole world of God?


The bible states "Jacob have i loved, Esau have i hated" before they had even done any good or evil works.

Why did God hate Esau? Does God hate all those who arent of Him?

HATE is such a strong word... especially coming from a LOVING God.

"God so loved the WORLD" - WORLD cant mean everyone if he HATED Esau, God wouldnt just HATE one person surely. The WORLD must mean his chosen few, His elect.

okay... lil mindboggling.

[joris]

First, I find this a very difficult topic; it seems all weird, especially when seeing, free will, all that, how does it all mix wellI'm trying to wrap my head around why?
God is all powerful, why isnt the whole world of God?it's free will; everything He created, it's His -- except for people; that's how important free will is to God; ofcourse by redemption you say, you surrender to God; and even then, He finds free will so important, even though we learn slowly and surrendering again and again it's difficult, and even as we still sin and fail all the time; He loves us and helps us and... ow well, Jesus took all that, also that part of our brokenness, our short-sighted ways, He took all the blame, all the punishment, everything; it's not like He'll let that seperate us from Him -- but even there, if we truly wish to be dead instead of live, we have choice to throw life He gave us away;
Yeah that, such freedom, and us being nearly, or completely, blind, it's frightning, but there again, He loves us and protects us

I don't understand about Esau

[Angelo]

Very nice thought. Based on what I have learned from Bro Donnie's ministry, ti's true that God never did have pleasure on the destruction of man, or any individual. The reason why He "hated" Esau is because He knew by His foreknowledge what he would be- his decisions.

We have to consider the nature of God in order for us to see or understand His decisions. Being sovereign to His creation, they will be subjected to His judgments; and being righteous, He must make a way of escape from destruction. Our decision in life will determine our own destiny.

[BroTrevor]

Ok, so here's my two cents on it.

Q1) Isn't God powerful enough to just save the whole world.

A1) Yes. But that's not the way He chose to do it.
why did He choose to do this?? He wanted us to CHOOSE Him. He could have created us for a specific purpose, like he did the angels. (as I understand it) But God wanted someone to love Him because they WANTED to... not because they were created to.

Your dog just loves you. Doesn't matter who you are...if you feed him and pet him, he's your best friend. He didn't look at all the potential masters he could have had and choose you over anyone else... you picked him up, patted him a couple times, gave him a bone...and WHAM...he loves you. (a loose analogy)

A husband or wife CHOOSES. My wife chose me over all the other guys knocking down her door for her hand in marriage. I chose her over all the other girls that ran away when I came in the room. Doesn't that make love more special...when there are options, and you forsake all others and "cleave only unto Him"

So that's why... God wanted CHOICE based love. If he created us all to choose Him...well then...it just wouldn't be the same in my mind.

It's all about love. oh yeah.


Q2) For God so loved the World...(who is the world? does it include Esau?)

A2) He loved the world so much he did something... He came as the Son of God and died on the cross for our sins.

I think that's pretty all encompassing of everyone. He does love the whole world. That love was in ACTION! The love = action. What He did was showing His love. He proved His love by dying on the cross. He did it for Judas. He did it for Esau. He did it for Pilate. He did it for the soldiers hanging on the cross. He did it for the liars. He did it for the murderers. He did it for the lusters, covetors, prideful, arrogant, unholy, mean, dirty yucky people.

He did it for you.

That was that love coming out. (more with the next question...)

Q3) Why did God Hate Esau? How could he love and Hate at the same time if Esau is part of the world.

A3) He did love Esau in my mind. Because Esau was a part of the world. HE did for Esau. He created lambs for Esau to sacrafice as a type of the Lamb of God to come.

But Esau wanted no part of that love. Esau rejected the birthright that he was given.

The bible says... "THIS is the condemnation...that men loved darkness rather than light"

See, Esau didn't love the light... That is what condemned Him. God showed love to Esau...as he did the whole world. Esau rejected it. It was his own actions that brought about God's wrath and hatred.

He's a jealous God. He wants our love!! He makes it so easy... He did it all. All we gotta do is choose... but yet some men choose to despise what has been given them. They despise that birthright....they despise that salvation so fully and freely given them...they despise God's love in action.

He was able to hate Esau because He knew Esau would despise the birthright... because in His mind, He had already loved the world...and knew Esau would never have a part of that Love.

Predestination by foreknowledge.


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at least...that's my understanding of it anyhow. Hope it helps.

[SisTrev]

A husband or wife CHOOSES. My wife chose me over all the other guys knocking down her door for her hand in marriage. I chose her over all the other girls that ran away when I came in the room.

I dont think thats quite what happened.:) ......but great thoughts on predestination!! You really know how to word things!