Sanctification:

[JoeC]

Okay, so we've all be trained up that there are three steps to adoption.

Justification
Sanctification
Sealing with the Holy Ghost.


That second step gets me. It feels like I'm always getting re-sanctified - and of course, Satan loves to take the opportunity to tell me I'm not as far as I think I am.

Anybody with me?

[AndrewMichael]

We are never fully-sanctified, we constantly go over it again and again refrining our lives into Christ character. Thus, we cannot obtain a sin-less perfection, though we strive for it, in this body. But there is a stage of sanctification that must happen, the basics in our lives, a renewing in our heart to want to follow exactly what the Word says we should be.

And yes, the devil comes at me everyday and says I'm not good enough, and will use facts to hurt me "You don't pray enough!" But we are the sons of God and thus can just say "THUS SAITH THE LORD" and quote to him what God has said about us! Halelujah!

[redeemed]

- and of course, Satan loves to take the opportunity to tell me I'm not as far as I think I am.

Anybody with me?

i go through that quite often.:012:

[JoeC]

We are never fully-sanctified, we constantly go over it again and again refrining our lives into Christ character. Thus, we cannot obtain a sin-less perfection, though we strive for it, in this body. But there is a stage of sanctification that must happen, the basics in our lives, a renewing in our heart to want to follow exactly what the Word says we should be.

Anyone want to expound on the particular differences between Sanctification and simply being made more into the image of Christ?

[Bradley]

As to the very first post on this thread, we are always going to get hung up on something or another.....As long as we're in this flesh, we'll have that "sticky" nature. *This doesn't give us room to go out and sin...don't get me wrong...* But, the thing I try to keep in mind, so as not to get beat up by Satan; is that this flesh is technically his property...It was brought here by a physical act, that wasn't God's origional plan....This body is made from dirt, and this is Satan's earth...for now...So, he can trip this flesh up, he can cause it to stumble, he can do what he likes...the thing he can NEVER get to, is my soul, which was a part of God before the foundation of the world....Sure, we strive for a sinless walk with God, but even Bro. Branham said he sinned "ten thousand times a day." We'll never be quite perfect while in this flesh..

[JoeC]

So, could we conclude that what the step of sanctification does is purge our the desires of the inward man?

[AndrewMichael]

Well, maybe I'll try to put it this way.

Sanctification is an outward expression of something that has happened on the inside. We lose the desire to sin and thus want to end doing the things that we now know are sinful. For a woman, there's all the outward things that us Message people know about. For a man, it's usually his language, music, and attitude that need to be changed drastically at the beginning. I know I had to cut my vocabulary in about half when I first believed, and definitely had to get rid of all my music and my prideful attitude. TV is probably one for both of em. I know a lot of people tend to give a hard time about TV but I happen to hate it! We have one in our house but I believe if it is used for the Glory of God (such as watching sermons, or spiritual movies) I'm all for it, but the tendency is to get cable and bring all that garbage into the home, or to have a bunch of worldly movies. This is just something I have observed.

Ironic though, you tend to try to destroy the "boarders" we are accustomed to, but are asking us to show the boarder to santification. I understand your concern though, it still gets me a little confused but I just know everyday I'm getting a little bit closer to being like the Lord (even though I have had many a set-back). Hope this helps you brother.

[JoeC]

Man, I'm with you on the TV issue. The "Message monitor" is something I'm against. Not out-and-out against it where I would condemn someone for watching it (I watch it time to time myself) - but it can definately lead places.

By God's grace, when I get my own home there'll be one tiny 12" in the master bedroom - that's it. More for educational flicks than entertainment. If my kids want to watch a movie, it's gonna be moderated and only one or two times a week. I spent my early childhood with my imagination and I want my kids to grow up the same way. Movies dull the mind and make people surface thinkers.

btw, I didn't understand what you were saying in the below quote:
Ironic though, you tend to try to destroy the "boarders" we are accustomed to, but are asking us to show the boarder to santification.

Maybe I'm not understanding you just right. I don't try to destroy borders. I try to define them Biblically.

[AndrewMichael]

It was an observation.....more like you like to question boarders and then wanted to boarder a question...........

Wow, I don't think I even understand that! Don't worry about it, I just liked how you challenge "accepted" boarders and was asking what the boarders of santification were, that's all.

[JoeC]

Yup. I don't profess to know everything. I don't even profess to know for certain the things that I argue for. :crazy: Mostly, I cast the arguement that makes the most sense to me and see if anyone can refute it. That's how I determine if I'm anywhere close to the truth. ;-)

Like, on the "Perfect Match" thread. I actually started out leaning towards "one man, one woman." About three posts into it and someone said something that made me think of things in a different light.

[AndrewMichael]

Interesting.....maybe I just don't think enough to catch things like that. I'm a pretty basic kind of guy, so when things tend to get largely philosophical, I tend to not get involved, not wanting to confuse myself away from the truth, know what I'm saying?

[JoeC]

Ah. Well, I changed my bent way before things got "philisophical." Like, in the first page. And yeah, throwing in quantum physics at the end there was a bit out of my reach too. :dft002:

[AndrewMichael]

yah, my head was starting to spin a little bit! OK, I actually passed out from gettin so dizzy....

[JoeC]

lol. Sometimes a conversation can get so broad... it's a lot to keep in your head.

[jtucker]

yeah i'm not philosophical at all. I don't consider myself smart nor knowledgable, but only knowing the things God has revealed to me. i don't care about my own thinking but to know Godwill for my life not only three four years don't the road but also the next minute, and until then staying on ones knees!

[JoeC]

Just make sure you're not using the fact that your not "philosophical" as a cop out for not thinking things through and blindly following what some big name somewhere says. :)

I only say that because I've seen it happen before (or at least gotten that feeling from some people I've met). One can copy-cat the Bible, even copy-cat Brother Branham, or (I see this a lot) copy-cat their pastor. But unless they process it and get a grasp on it themselves, it counts for nothing. Some of us just process things differently than others. :)

[Bradley]

I totally agree with JoeC....We should not just believe something b/c a preacher, pastor, friend, Prophet, Bible, says it....we should know why we believe something.....Maybe we don't understand everything, and for those things, it just takes faith in what the Bible or the Prophet says...But, for the most part, we should understand why we believe something.....How else could we witness effectively unless we do know why we believe something? Ppl of the world aren't going to swallow the whole "I don't understand it, but I believe it" line.......Excellent post JoeC!

*Come let us reason.........*

[JoeC]

I'm glad you liked my post... I accept votes for expressions like this. Just click on the scales in the upper right corner of my post... :thumbup:


But really, I've even gone so far as to say that we should weigh the Message against the Bible. Not because we actually suspect anything is wrong, but because as followers of Christ it is our responsibility to do so.

[HotShot53]

But really, I've even gone so far as to say that we should weigh the Message against the Bible. Not because we actually suspect anything is wrong, but because as followers of Christ it is our responsibility to do so.

I agree 100%....

But no greens for you, cause you are begging for them ;)

[JoeC]

I don't expect greens from you. You only give me reds because you're afraid I might catch up.

[AndrewMichael]

I definitely see people who just "imitate" others above them or even just Brother Branham. Why do I get out of REALLY in-depth conversations? Because I seek God's revelation to me. I take His word, His message, and bring that to my prayers and seek His revelation, that way I don't mess it up with my thinking. But, like you all have said, we need to be like ourselves, what God has made us. Thus, I want to be the best Andrew in the world, not the best Brother Branham impersonator....

[Angelo]

Okay, so we've all be trained up that there are three steps to adoption.

Justification
Sanctification
Sealing with the Holy Ghost.


That second step gets me. It feels like I'm always getting re-sanctified - and of course, Satan loves to take the opportunity to tell me I'm not as far as I think I am.

Anybody with me?
God bless you brothers and sisters. I correspond with that bro Joe.
Been pondering about it and really is a catchy subject. Made me think over with myself and with the other two works of God in our person: Justification , and Baptism of Holy Ghost. Still building a thougt on it and a question came to me. How does God work through this stage of grace within us and how do we let God have the preeminence on working on our spirits?

I believe it is for our spirit (memory, affection, conscience, etc...) and wherein the battle is fought... obvious question but please expound.:)

[Jezz]

God bless you brothers and sisters. I correspond with that bro Joe.
Been pondering about it and really is a catchy subject. Made me think over with myself and with the other two works of God in our person: Justification , and Baptism of Holy Ghost. Still building a thougt on it and a question came to me. How does God work through this stage of grace within us and how do we let God have the preeminence on working on our spirits?

I believe it is for our spirit (memory, affection, conscience, etc...) and wherein the battle is fought... obvious question but please expound.:)

Within our soul is either faith or doubt, we have faith in his Word then our spirit is then in turn changed (ie we stop reasoning through things we have faith that God will bring his promises to pass, we stop imagining vain things we have faith to bring our imagination into line, we dont follow our own conscience we use the Word as a guide.. and so forth). But for that to work we need to have the Word enter our soul, which is why we need to study our Bibles, Brother Branham's messages and pray fervently. At least that is my understanding. Our bodies, our flesh, it will always sin but we can bring our spirits into line if we have that gene seed of God within us. It is as Brother Branham said, the greatest battle ever fought.

[Angelo]

I also think that these works of God are specifically referred to:

Justification is to the soul.
Sanctification is to the spirit.
Baptism of the Holy Ghost is to the body. (Roman 8:11)... he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[Angelo]

But for that to work we need to have the Word enter our soul, which is why we need to study our Bibles, Brother Branham's messages and pray fervently. At least that is my understanding. Our bodies, our flesh, it will always sin but we can bring our spirits into line if we have that gene seed of God within us. It is as Brother Branham said, the greatest battle ever fought.
Here is what I have learned from hearing. Once a person is borned of God, Satan no longer has power over the person, he is actually loosed from sin by faith in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then, after the new birth it does not stop there. A battle is being fought not in the realm of the soul for it is already redeemed and cleased and is in a stable state....but in the realm of the mind (spirit). Here is where Satan tempts us through our memories, affection, conscience, I forgot the other two... (please help me)..

[Jezz]

Here is what I have learned from hearing. Once a person is borned of God, Satan no longer has power over the person, he is actually loosed from sin by faith in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then, after the new birth it does not stop there. A battle is being fought not in the realm of the soul for it is already redeemed and cleased and is in a stable state....but in the realm of the mind (spirit). Here is where Satan tempts us through our memories, affection, conscience, I forgot the other two... (please help me)..

.... reasoning and imagination

yes thats true, there is no battle in the soul, you are either a seed of God or not. i didnt mean to say there was a battle in the soul if thats what you were thinking, faith or doubt simply comes back to wether you are seed or not.

[Angelo]

Thanks Jezz.
Just clarifying po. The spirit is where we learn and the tower where we decide what our actions will be. What we feed it with will determine how strong we will be when a wrestling match with the devil comes. That is why we have to continously feed on the Word of God and by hearing and hearing, our faith is sharpened.

[BroTrevor]

I hate to do this again...

but...

I've really been thinking about What the Holy Spirit is lately...and what sanctification is....

In personal inspection and such, I've sometimes wondered if I have the Holy Spirit...as God just recently (within the last 6 months or so) has delivered me from things that were not right.

Wouldn't that be termed as sanctification??

So my thoughts aren't real refined on this subject...and I was speaking with a brother who was talking about the new birth and things... So this really gets me to thinking more on this topic.

I need to do a good old study of the message on this topic... my thoughts are real young... I don't want to post too much until I have more firm answers....

[jtucker]

i will be praying for you to find your answers. i know you know this already but just seek his face and rest in love of God.

[BroTrevor]

I post a question on this thread...

A person feels they are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Let's entertain 3 scenario's

They all live thier life for the Lord...never miss church, are actively participating in the work of the Lord.


Person A: Still watches movies that include "only some" language and try to over look any innuendo or indecent dress. They watch "not that bad" movies... They know that some are not the best, but don't see anything "too wrong" with what they allow.


Person B: Watches some of the same movies that Person A watches, but afterwards, they hate themselves for wasting their time and for sitting through that content. They will vow to not do that again. 2 weeks from then, they will repeat the same scenario

Person C: Used to be a Person A, then became a Person B, and now is so very selective in what they allow that they watch less than 1 dozen movies a year and are very guarded what they watch. They find they just don't need movies anymore.

Keep in mind... ALL these feel they have recieved the baptism of the Spirit, and are active participants in church.

My questions.
1) Are they all sanctified?
2) Are they all filled with the Holy Ghost?
3) Do some need to be more sanctified than they currently are?
4) Can you have the Holy Ghost without being "fully sanctified"?

Let's not condemn Person A, B, or C...but keep this on the thread of sanctification...

I'd love to know everyones thoughts....

[Jezz]

Keep in mind... ALL these feel they have recieved the baptism of the Spirit, and are active participants in church.

My questions.
1) Are they all sanctified?
2) Are they all filled with the Holy Ghost?
3) Do some need to be more sanctified than they currently are?
4) Can you have the Holy Ghost without being "fully sanctified"?

Let's not condemn Person A, B, or C...but keep this on the thread of sanctification...

I'd love to know everyones thoughts....

1/3. I would say not. Brother Branhams said "That's what God does through sanctification: takes all the desire of sin out of your heart, cleans you up.". Person A still has the desire to sin even if they know it is wrong, therefore not sanctified. Person B is being sanctified, s/he has a desire to clean up his life. Person C is sanctified based on the information in the example.

2/4. Justficiation, Sanctification and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are all steps, you can't jump from the bottom step to the top step, its a process, one step at a time. Brother Branham mentioned many times that sanctification is done so that we can recieve the Holy Ghost. Wether they feel they are filled with the Holy Ghost is irrelevant, Penecostals believe that are filled with the Holy Ghost when they speak in tongues. Feelings are not to be trusted, we need to judge every by the Word. So Person C may have the Holy Ghost, Person A or B do not. Living a good, clean christian life in not indicitive of being filled with the Holy Ghost. After all both the wise and foolish virgins trimmed their lamps (that being a metaphor for cleaning up their lives) but only the wise virgins have the oil, the Word, in their lamps.

I'll have to study the Message more, but that is how I understand it all at this time.

[BroTrevor]

1/3. I would say not. Brother Branhams said "That's what God does through sanctification: takes all the desire of sin out of your heart, cleans you up.". Person A still has the desire to sin even if they know it is wrong, therefore not sanctified. Person B is being sanctified, s/he has a desire to clean up his life. Person C is sanctified based on the information in the example.

2/4. Justficiation, Sanctification and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are all steps, you can't jump from the bottom step to the top step, its a process, one step at a time. Brother Branham mentioned many times that sanctification is done so that we can recieve the Holy Ghost. Wether they feel they are filled with the Holy Ghost is irrelevant, Penecostals believe that are filled with the Holy Ghost when they speak in tongues. Feelings are not to be trusted, we need to judge every by the Word. So Person C may have the Holy Ghost, Person A or B do not. Living a good, clean christian life in not indicitive of being filled with the Holy Ghost. After all both the wise and foolish virgins trimmed their lamps (that being a metaphor for cleaning up their lives) but only the wise virgins have the oil, the Word, in their lamps.

I'll have to study the Message more, but that is how I understand it all at this time.

so you don't think Person B has the Holy Ghost?? Because I would say this describes MANY people in the message today....that all feel they are filled with the Holy Ghost.

If person B is struggling to do right...they want whats right, but haven't overcome some things.

So you must assume then, that you are not sanctified until you have overcome the majority of sins in your life?? If you are struggling with this or that, be it temper, pride, movies, lust, blah, blah....that you cannot be filled with the Holy Ghost yet? Keep in mind, Person B really doesn't want these things...but fails alot.

I've really been redefining things lately....I need to study the message more.

[Jezz]

so you don't think Person B has the Holy Ghost?? Because I would say this describes MANY people in the message today....that all feel they are filled with the Holy Ghost.


Well only 8 people made the ark ;)

Honestly I'm not too sure. Santification occurs through the blood of Jesus Christ, and santification means "to cleanse". So santification is the cleansing by the blood, is that just accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as our saviour? is it more than that? Brother Branham said he backslid a thousand times a day (or more, i cant remember the exact quote), and he was definately filled with the Holy Ghost. So what defines sanctification? Can't be a sinless life, and even having rid yourself of the majority of sin in your life to be considered sanctified doesnt seem right some how. Perhaps Person B is sanctified, perhaps not. Kind of just thinking aloud here. *gets back to reading the Bible*

[BroTrevor]

So what defines sanctification? Can't be a sinless life, and even having rid yourself of the majority of sin in your life to be considered sanctified doesnt seem right some how. Perhaps Person B is sanctified, perhaps not. Kind of just thinking aloud here. *gets back to reading the Bible*

yes, my thoughts exactly...

[joris]

Can't be a sinless life, and even having rid yourself of the majority of sin in your life to be considered sanctified doesnt seem right some how. Perhaps Person B is sanctified, perhaps not. Kind of just thinking aloud here. *gets back to reading the Bible*
Living life, walking together with God, trying to walk with the Spirit, (or, how is it called in English?)
Living and having a relationship with God (trying to) - which'd make you won't sin very much or so; dying off your old flesh and living in Jesus' live... that sounds like holy
ow; I hope that's the topic you guys were thinking of anyway ;)

[Angelo]

My questions.
1) Are they all sanctified?
2) Are they all filled with the Holy Ghost?
3) Do some need to be more sanctified than they currently are?
4) Can you have the Holy Ghost without being "fully sanctified"?


I may say they're all saved if they accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour. And If A is Bride, then there will come a day that he'll have an experience like B. Our souls, Bro Branham tought is the seed gene of God, which is a part of God that must undergo perfection through these steps of grace.
Sanctification is a compound word, means "cleaned and set aside for service."

[Angelo]

Living life, walking together with God, trying to walk with the Spirit, (or, how is it called in English?)
Living and having a relationship with God (trying to) - which'd make you won't sin very much or so; dying off your old flesh and living in Jesus' live... that sounds like holy
ow; I hope that's the topic you guys were thinking of anyway ;)
Exactly Bro Joris.

[Angelo]

Keep in mind... ALL these feel they have recieved the baptism of the Spirit, and are active participants in church.

My questions.
1) Are they all sanctified?
2) Are they all filled with the Holy Ghost?
3) Do some need to be more sanctified than they currently are?
4) Can you have the Holy Ghost without being "fully sanctified"?

Let's not condemn Person A, B, or C...but keep this on the thread of sanctification...

I'd love to know everyones thoughts....
To not condemn these brothers let me look at it in my own standards:
We can also note that Bro Branham teaches that we cannot base our salvation on feelings..

1) If I spend my time on movies that are of no profit, then I have a problem. I am not santifying myself for the work of the LOrd.
2) If I am filled with the Holy Ghost which means I have sanctified myself for the Lord, then I would shun profanity.
3) Indeed, because once you stop, the music and heartbeat stops also. hehe :D
4) The gifts of the Holy Ghost maybe. I don't think He would enjoy dwelling in an unclean vessel.

[Angelo]

Ephesians 4:22-24 (Amplified Bible)

22 Strip yourselves of your former nature [put off and discard your old unrenewed self] which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion;

23 And be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude],

24 And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God's image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness

[HotShot53]

Bro. John mentioned this in his sermon today... how people want to skip straight from justification to the Holy Ghost. And that in general sanctification was holiness, to a point where some people might consider it too legalistic.

[jtucker]

Bro. John mentioned this in his sermon today... how people want to skip straight from justification to the Holy Ghost. And that in general sanctification was holiness, to a point where some people might consider it too legalistic. i agree with your Pastor

[JoeC]

so you don't think Person B has the Holy Ghost?? Because I would say this describes MANY people in the message today....that all feel they are filled with the Holy Ghost.
I wrote a piece a while back called Discerning Your Desires (http://yqnews.org/forums/showthread.php?t=115)with the believing B's of this world in mind. You can find it here (http://yqnews.org/forums/showthread.php?t=115). It pretty well outlines my feelings on the status of person B. I'd love to see someone comment on it within the context of this discussion.

[AndrewMichael]

I read your post and here are my two-cents...

I was in a worldly relationship for the first two years of being "in the Message" (though I seldom use that expression) and I did a lot of things that pleased the flesh (even though God stopped me by His grace). I could never feel free while I was in this relationship because I would have guilt all the time with the things I was doing. I look back and I don't have a clue if I had the Holy Ghost then.

I firmly believe that one loses the desire for sin when filled with the Holy Ghost and hates it, does not enjoy it. Am I tempted? Does my flesh want to draw me from God? Of course, but my desire is totally different and the Holy Spirit in me keeps me from acting on thoughts the devil throughs in my head. We will be tempted but I believe when we KNOW we have the Holy Ghost the satisfaction, or even the slight pleasure of sin, is not attractive whatsoever. Our mind might have a thought to go after sin (girls, music, games) but our spirit pulls us away from it, and our love for it is gone....

Not sure if I'm really dissagreeing with anyone but this is my belief.

[JoeC]

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing. I do know these things:

The flesh will ALWAYS enjoy sin.
While on this earth we are in the flesh.
Even the Holy Ghost filled Christian can give into the flesh.
At the time that the Holy Ghost filled Christian gives into the flesh, he is IN the flesh.
While in the flesh, he is subject to the flesh.
If subject to the flesh, he is subject to the enjoyments of the flesh.
If the Holy Ghost filled Christian gives into the flesh (feeds the flesh more or simply caves in), he enjoys sin while in the flesh.
Until the Christian trains himself to feed the spirit more, he will continually fall down, hating himself for it - even while having the Holy Ghost! Rom 7:15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

[jtucker]

Andrew Joe you both just took all the words right out of my mouth lol Great posts you both get 8 more points of rep for that

[AndrewMichael]

I guess I believe once filled with the Holy Ghost the battle is moved up a bit. I have a hard believing that if someone is still drinking, smoking, doing sexual things, and other explicit sins, that they have yet recieved the Holy Ghost....Of course we will make mistakes. Of course we will sin. But we hate it! My flesh may like it, but I hate it! The flesh man is not who we really are (any true born-again believer). We are a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). If we can still enjoy our sin, than I don't see how we can have the Holy Ghost if we weren't convicted to the point where we hate the sin. This happened to me so many times but I believe once I finally overcame, that's when I knew that God lived in me. While I continued to compromise and enjoy what I was doing, I didn't have that staying power of the Holy Ghost and almost drove myself into complete insanity. These are my experiences. (I'm sure we'll dig a little deeper into this) lol

[JoeC]

I guess I believe once filled with the Holy Ghost the battle is moved up a bit. I have a hard believing that if someone is still drinking, smoking, doing sexual things, and other explicit sins, that they have yet recieved the Holy Ghost....Of course we will make mistakes.
Yes, I agree with you that we make mistakes. I do have a hard time seeing a believer doing those things though. The question has been asked "What one sin could a man do that would PROVE he does not have the Holy Ghost?" It's an interesting question and though there are at least two sins I could think of, it highlights the fact that by one single action an outsider one cannot (under most cases) if someone is filled with the Holy Ghost.

Sanctification? My understanding has been that it's an initial purging. The Holy Ghost is the one that moves into the clean home after it's been cleaned. But sometimes more cleanings are in order because we don't let God have ever nook and closet when He first moves in.

Going back to what HotShot's pastor was saying... I find that many times, new babes are even more "sanctified" than many Holy Ghost filled Christians. This is because the new babe in Christ has yet to experience the overwhelming grace present in a Holy Ghost filled relationship. Thus, all they act on is the law. They end up clean, legalistic, and zealous - but yet they lack something. It's like a gas fire. Ignited quick and buring hot, it purges everything, but goes back to nothing very quickly. I've seen too many new babes come in that put me to shame with their zeal and, yes, their amazingly high standards. But give them a few months and they're back on the streets. Give me a slow, steady burn. Let me be the log in the fire than one can come to and start up a fire long after all the twigs have sparked away.


For further study: Matthew 12:43-45 (King James Version)

43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

[HotShot53]

Yes, I agree with you that we make mistakes. I do have a hard time seeing a believer doing those things though. The question has been asked "What one sin could a man do that would PROVE he does not have the Holy Ghost?" It's an interesting question and though there are at least two sins I could think of, it highlights the fact that by and one action one cannot (under most cases) tell if someone is filled with the Holy Ghost.

I think the case is more of how often the sins are than what they are... if someone does something every day, then you wouldn't think they have the Holy Ghost, but if they get tempted and fall only very rarely, and quickly repent, you would think it more likely they have it, even if it is the same sin....

[jtucker]

Yes as Holy Ghost filled we are made perfect, which is from the greek mature, sure we still make mistakes but we don't sin, we aren't of the flesh, we won't sin. for we are of a Holy and pure spirit the spirit Of God

[Angelo]

I guess I believe once filled with the Holy Ghost the battle is moved up a bit. I have a hard believing that if someone is still drinking, smoking, doing sexual things, and other explicit sins, that they have yet recieved the Holy Ghost....Of course we will make mistakes. Of course we will sin. But we hate it! My flesh may like it, but I hate it! The flesh man is not who we really are (any true born-again believer). We are a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). If we can still enjoy our sin, than I don't see how we can have the Holy Ghost if we weren't convicted to the point where we hate the sin. This happened to me so many times but I believe once I finally overcame, that's when I knew that God lived in me. While I continued to compromise and enjoy what I was doing, I didn't have that staying power of the Holy Ghost and almost drove myself into complete insanity. These are my experiences. (I'm sure we'll dig a little deeper into this) lol
I totally agree Bro Michael, The Holy Ghost will and can only dwell and work through us completely if Sanctification is observed by the person. That is why when we fall back, we loose joy and virtue, and that joy and virtue is the Holy Ghost. The person will know it within himself if he has good credits with God or not because it is a relationship.

[joris]

I think the case is more of how often the sins are than what they are... if someone does something every day, then you wouldn't think they have the Holy Ghost, but if they get tempted and fall only very rarely, and quickly repent, you would think it more likely they have it, even if it is the same sin....I don't know - christians can have difficulties, addictions too; I don't think it's fair someone does not have the Holy Ghost when battling some addiction -- in fact not giving in to the flesh may well show a christian has the Holy Ghost in fact (having the desire to live the way God longs)

[Angelo]

Here's what Bro Branham has to say about it, I hope this helps:

WHAT.WAS.THE.HOLY.GHOST.GIVEN.FOR_ JEFF.IN V-4 N-3 THURSDAY_ 59-1217
109 Now, I don't want to hurt you, but I've told you I'm here with the deepest of sincerity. To keep from pinching you, once in a while I jump off on a line somewhere (and just stay with the Truth.), but staying there and make it in such a way it won't pinch you too hard.
But I want to tell you something. If the Bible says that it's wrong for a woman to cut her hair, and you say you've got the Holy Ghost and then cut your hair, I wonder if you have. Don't get mad. If it does, that still shows there's another mark against you.

WHAT.WAS.THE.HOLY.GHOST.GIVEN.FOR_ JEFF.IN V-4 N-3 THURSDAY_ 59-1217
111 If the Bible says it's wrong for a woman to put on a garment that pertain to a man, and you wear these little old overalls and slacks out here on the road... You grown women... I guess a little baby would be all--think if they're play with little boys and things. But look, when you--when you grown women fifteen, sixteen, eighteen years old, and up to grandma, out here on the road... And the Bible says it's an abomination in the sight of God for a woman to wear those things, and you wear them anyhow, and say you got the Holy Ghost? I wonder sometimes. The Holy Ghost will follow God's Word to the letter. And a preacher behind the pulpit that ain't got grace enough to preach it, I doubt he's got It. Well, that's what the Holy Ghost is for.

[redeemed]

wow! i'll have to read that message!

[Angelo]

And Bro Branham also says on paragraph (103), "I was talking on power of prayer, power of speech, power for a holy life. That's what the Holy Ghost is to do."

[AndrewMichael]

Going back to what HotShot's pastor was saying... I find that many times, new babes are even more "sanctified" than many Holy Ghost filled Christians. This is because the new babe in Christ has yet to experience the overwhelming grace present in a Holy Ghost filled relationship. Thus, all they act on is the law. They end up clean, legalistic, and zealous - but yet they lack something.


Here's my take on that. I know what you mean sorta like Matthew 13:20-21. But there are those who are zealous because they are there to push those who might have gotten a little stingy. I know that the Legic/zealous attitude is not the way to go. I want to be as zealous for the Lord as I can, but to do it because I want to look more religious than my brother is completely wrong. Actually, I hope that if I get so salty, they can get that much more thirsty, and really just want to help them in their walk, not expressing myself as "The Most Spiritual".

There is a fine balance though. I believe we should be firm on the Word of God, but whats the difference between this and legalism? When a person has righteous indignation against something that is wrong (girl too tight clothes, guys wasting time on video games, etc.) but it comes out through love, not self-righteousness. I have been learning this lesson for a while and finally think I'm starting to get a hold of it. I preach with my life, not from a book, but by the Holy Spirit in me, testifying the things of God. And through love we speak things such as "Brother, I think we ought not to talk about that." I see a lot of people that if they give up some games or TV, they could be used dynamically for the kingdom of God, thus I preach accordingly, but always through love.

[AndrewMichael]

And Bro Branham also says on paragraph (103), "I was talking on power of prayer, power of speech, power for a holy life. That's what the Holy Ghost is to do."

Absolutely! Amen!

[Angelo]

Very true Bro AndrewMichael. Without love we cannot help anyone, without being saved ourselves, we cannot show the way to others; and we cannot be a true witness without receiving the Holy Ghost.
If you'll ask me, I am really not the type of person that will tell another that he is in a wrong place unless he opens up the topic himself, and I myself has the confidence of cheering him up. I may give some indirect message, but not directly.
It is also true that there are brothers that has newly accepted Christ but has acquired to themselves a different spirit, or a different understanding: knowledge of the truth, and being new, is very prone to mistakes. These brothers must have within them the humility to be corrected in order to be helped. We are very thankful that we have the Lord that understands, and is able to lift us up regardless of the circumstances.

[BroTrevor]

Until the Christian trains himself to feed the spirit more, he will continually fall down, hating himself for it - even while having the Holy Ghost!

Ok, this post moved me. JoeC deserves much green.

Hating himself for it... wow.. I know how that feels!!

As I pondered this thread, my own sanctification, and sanctification in general... I had this thought.

1) Sanctification is "cleaned and set aside for service"

This I believe is a process that one goes through...I suppose it could happen immediately...and in a sense it does.

Repenting means to turn around... not just to feel sorry for something, but to turn from those things.

So to say that just because someone falls, means they are not sanctified, I believe is an error. Sanctification is cleaning... This doesn't mean you can't get dirty again. Actually, as was posted in here early about that if you send the devils packing out of your life, they go out and find more, and come back in ya if you don't have something to replace them.

So if you sanctify your life, but don't press on the Holy Ghost, I feel the Word says you'll be worse off.

I think of sanctification as that initial cleaning, and the cleaning that we continually keep on ourselves over. I don't know that I can say that a sanctified person can never get dirty again.

It's cleaning your life so God can use you. Part of it is you doing it... you at least must make the choice, the other part is God doing/helping you with it.

I know in my own life, when I feel convicted over something or other, I find myself hoping there wont be an altar call at church so I wont feel like I should be up there praying with people. (hopefully that's not too personal) I know that I wont feel the power in the prayer that ought to be there. So, that's where a blemish has marred the faith in God. We must continually clean the windows between us and God to keep them from smudges and such so we can see clearly.

It's a daily concern of mine to keep myself clean. I want to be in the channel where God can use me. That I believe is what Sanctification is. Cleaned...so God can use me when he sees fit.

I often teach Sunday School at church for the preteen class. I use the analogy of a glass.

Justification - you see the dirty glass on the ground and recognize what it is... it's a glass.

Sanctification - You clean the glass and put it on the shelf so someone can drink out of it. So it can be used for the purpose which God created it for without grossing the user out! <grin>

Baptism of the Holy Ghost - God takes the glass off the shelf, fills it with water, so that others may drink of cool clear, sweet water.

In the process, it may get smudges or stains... so you clean it again.

[BroTrevor]

I heard this quote Wednesday night in church. It really hit home, and made me think of this thread.


ALL.THINGS_ SHREVEPORT.LA SATURDAY_ 62-1124E
E-48 There's one more thing I'd like to speak of here in our pardon. And that is, after we receive our pardon, we receive purity with that pardon. Now, if you're just making out like you got pardon, you haven't got purity.
Now, you say, "Can you prove that, Brother Branham?"
Mark this down: Hebrews the 9th chapter, the 11th to the 15th verse: "The worshipper once purged has no more conscience of sin." If you're really pardoned, the very guilt, the very desire, has left you. It's all gone. Purity goes with genuine pardoning. So if we claim pardon, and still not pure, how can we claim pardon, when pardon generates purity. See what I mean?
Cleansing, what cleansing you from what? Cleansing you from all connection of formal, dead, traditional works (Amen.), cleansing us from dead tradition. How can you still remain in dead tradition when you're pure from it? Now, you read that in Hebrews 9:11. See if that's right. It cleanses us from the filth of dead, formal, works when we have been pardoned by the Blood of Jesus, because it's the sanctifying power that goes with the pardoning. And we're cleansed from all of our dead works.

[AndrewMichael]

That-a-boy, BroTrevor. Makes a lot more sense to me now.... Thanks for finding that...

[joris]

uhm,
Mark this down: Hebrews the 9th chapter, the 11th to the 15th verse: "The worshipper once purged has no more conscience of sin."I know this is in Hebrews, but it's not in Hebrews 9:11-15

[AndrewMichael]

The second half of Hebrews 9:14....

[BroTrevor]

Ah...I had wondered that while I was in service. I thought it was in chapter 10.


HEBREWS 10:2
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.


I believe Bro Branham also had in his mind the last half of 9:14 which states...

HEBREWS 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

which is pretty much saying the same thing. But for clarity sakes, you now have the scriptures to read.

[AndrewMichael]

Wow, now that was teamwork at it's finest....

[jtucker]

Ok, this post moved me. JoeC deserves much green.

Hating himself for it... wow.. I know how that feels!!

As I pondered this thread, my own sanctification, and sanctification in general... I had this thought.

1) Sanctification is "cleaned and set aside for service"

This I believe is a process that one goes through...I suppose it could happen immediately...and in a sense it does.

Repenting means to turn around... not just to feel sorry for something, but to turn from those things.

So to say that just because someone falls, means they are not sanctified, I believe is an error. Sanctification is cleaning... This doesn't mean you can't get dirty again. Actually, as was posted in here early about that if you send the devils packing out of your life, they go out and find more, and come back in ya if you don't have something to replace them.

So if you sanctify your life, but don't press on the Holy Ghost, I feel the Word says you'll be worse off.

I think of sanctification as that initial cleaning, and the cleaning that we continually keep on ourselves over. I don't know that I can say that a sanctified person can never get dirty again.

It's cleaning your life so God can use you. Part of it is you doing it... you at least must make the choice, the other part is God doing/helping you with it.

I know in my own life, when I feel convicted over something or other, I find myself hoping there wont be an altar call at church so I wont feel like I should be up there praying with people. (hopefully that's not too personal) I know that I wont feel the power in the prayer that ought to be there. So, that's where a blemish has marred the faith in God. We must continually clean the windows between us and God to keep them from smudges and such so we can see clearly.

It's a daily concern of mine to keep myself clean. I want to be in the channel where God can use me. That I believe is what Sanctification is. Cleaned...so God can use me when he sees fit.

I often teach Sunday School at church for the preteen class. I use the analogy of a glass.

Justification - you see the dirty glass on the ground and recognize what it is... it's a glass.

Sanctification - You clean the glass and put it on the shelf so someone can drink out of it. So it can be used for the purpose which God created it for without grossing the user out! <grin>

Baptism of the Holy Ghost - God takes the glass off the shelf, fills it with water, so that others may drink of cool clear, sweet water.

In the process, it may get smudges or stains... so you clean it again.

Amen Brother Trevor