Magic in books/movies [Archive] - Youth Quake Forums

Mick_Mack89

01-14-2006, 04:17 AM

hotshot, from what I can gather 2nd hand Harry Potter is straight out witchery, the purpose of the series is to tell stories about a kid becoming a wizard. There is no other purpose for the books than to make money in a paganistic literary way. Where as lord of the rings was, I think, a depiction of the war between God and Satan. There are many comparisons between the books and the bible itself, to many for me to get into at this late hour. But there is someone out there who can better answer your questions.

I also noticed that you didn't mention "the chronicles of narnia" another series of "magic" books. Do you have an "issue" with them also? I consider the main differance between the two series to be that in "the chronicles". The author, all but yells out through the book that it is based on christian morals. In LOTR, it is more subtle in it's aproach. In my AP english class, maybe 80% of the kids had no idea that LOTR can be easily viewed as christian in nature.

Although I don't think I agree with just because something is not based in reality that it is okay to read. We can talk about this better at church probablly.

My advice would be that if a book makes you uncomfortable, don't read it.

HotShot53

01-14-2006, 03:16 PM

I've never read the chronicals of narnia for the same reason.

I don't know, maybe I am just being too picky. I just don't think you should need to use magic to try to tell about God. I guess I see it the same way as Christian Rock, the message of the song may be good, but the delivery is off.

Mick_Mack89

01-14-2006, 04:59 PM

hmm.... :think:

Babyruth

01-15-2006, 03:41 AM

I don't believe in magic at all. There is no magic in the Bible, it is either God's workings, or satan's using demons and spirits. I don't think anything Christian should have magic, especially since it's not Scriptural. I've never read Lord of the Rings, but from what I've seen and heard, there is nothing Chrisitan in it. Anyone can make a story of right and wrong and say it's God and satan. I also don't really agree with the Chronicles of Narnia. I don't see much Christian in them either. I see the obvious, of right and wrong, good and evil, and there are some implications of the Bible in it because C.S. Lewis was a Christian of some sort, but I don't agree with them. I don't see anything wrong with reading them, I just don't like them. I don't like fantasy or fiction either. I like the truth.

blessed

01-22-2006, 05:00 PM

In my opinion and from what i have seen of magic as a kid
magic=witchcraft=devil.. i think we need to be careful, i don't read any sort of magic books because its inspired by the devil, do u think a believer will in his right mind take part in such things of the devil...but the devil has found a way to decieve lots of people, by saying its just fiction...my answer is ask yourself where does the inspiration come from...JK Rowlings books contain real spells they are not fiction oh and by the way she is a practising witch and blessed by the pope..funny isint it.

Jeni

01-22-2006, 08:14 PM

HMM... :think:

Like Mack said...If the book makes you uncomfortable, don't read it. What you wrote, Mack, is basically what I would have written myself...so no need to repeat things here...

As far as your statement on "I don't know, maybe I am just being too picky. I just don't think you should need to use magic to try to tell about God. I guess I see it the same way as Christian Rock, the message of the song may be good, but the delivery is off."

This can be such a widely opened discussion. Sometimes its difficult to just say WHY...sometimes you have to go way back into something else in order to lead up into an understandable WHY. There is more than one way of delivering a message. We all know this...The common denominator is the Holy Spirit.

Now...can God work through anyone? yes, He can. God can do anything He wants. If He wants to reach someone through a painting, He will. If He wants to reach someone through a song...He will. And if He wants to reach someone through a video they happen to be watching..He is more than able and more than willing to do just that. Its not impossible..and we cannot try and limit Him.

Now...this isn't meant to be taken to an extreme..so bite your tongue.

But...we have to remember...we're called on a higher plane. We're different. These videos, books, movies, songs, ...they may be just what someone out in the world needs... We know God on a different level...so trying to recieve inspiration or comfort out of something like that...isn't always going to work.

it may be entertaining...but thats not where God is expecting us to recieve our enlightenment and instruction from. But for those Christians not called to the Bride, their walk with Christ is different. Tho they have the same Bible we do, they are not called to the Message we have the privilage of recieving.

I can't say its wrong to read the LOTR or Narnia...because there is so much GOOD in them. Its helpful to many people. The symbology is seen so easily. The delivery isn't what we're used to...but good can come out of it. If you think you'll have trouble with it and will find it difficult to discern..then stay away. With anything, books, movies, music, sermons...we must ask the Holy Spirit to help us weed out the bad...

Snoopy

01-22-2006, 09:20 PM

(sorry, this is a bit disjointed because I'm typing it as I think it)

We could just as easily say "Why did Jesus have to use stories to deliver his message? Couldn't he just have said it outright?"

The blindingly obvious reason is that stories are more understandable to children and adults alike. Of course, Jesus' parables weren't always understandable, but others painted pictures that beautifully illustrated his point.

Magic in books such as the Chronicles of Narnia are simply a way of capturing your imagination. When magic takes a back seat to the central purpose, to teach truth, of course it's fine.

On the other hand, like Mick pointed out in his post, books like Harry Potter are written for the express purpose of glorifying witchcraft and making it look innocent. From what I've heard, those books contain direct slurs against christianity as well.

There is also a huge distinction to be made between "magic" and "witchcraft". In the Bible, witchcraft specifically refers to communicating with the dead and the like. The word magic is never mentioned in the Bible. There are many things that God does through man that could be called "magic". However, as long as the person he does this through admits that God is responsible, we would call it a miracle. If the man took responsibility for the miracles, we would call it "magic". The difference doesn't lie in substance, it lies in symantics.

NeedGod

01-23-2006, 02:12 AM

yeah, i agree with you snoop. these books, some are really bad.

marichino_freedom

01-23-2006, 07:28 PM

well, i have read harry potter, and some of lord of the rings, and like some have said before, if you can look at it from a completely literary standpoint, they arent so bad...just entertaining reading

Snoopy

01-23-2006, 09:51 PM

Yeah, I have a friend who told me the exact same thing. I haven't read them personally so I can't really offer an opinion. I haven't heard anything good about them, though.

NeedGod

01-24-2006, 04:42 AM

i have read( and i own Harry Potter) my small brother got it as he loves them. it can be looked at from a literary view, but remember they are meant for children and children are easily influenced. first, they start believing that its not so bad to do magic, then other things can creep in slowly. thats how the devil works. for an adult, i am not sure, but i would not advice chilren to be given these books.

blessed

01-24-2006, 08:10 PM

The denominational christians in my country did segments on the radio about those books, alot of research was done, and the churches have advised their members not to purchase those harry potter books/Lord of the rings/witchcraft books or movies, where does that leave us the people who walk in the light

Mick_Mack89

01-24-2006, 08:14 PM

Very true.
Also a literary reason to not read the books is that they are formulaic fiction. (haven't read them, my english teacher told my class that reading a good [literary wise] book, was not reading harry potter. It all falls into the archatype characters and story lines.)

JoeC

01-24-2006, 11:56 PM

You want to give us a synopsis of the background upon which you based that last post, Matt? 'Cause we don't really understand it.

Mick_Mack89

01-25-2006, 12:11 AM

Sorry, my bad. I was trying to give a (for the lack of a better term) worldly reason for not reading Harry Potter. And what I meant by the archtypes comment is that you can read other non-magic books out there that will give you a similer story. Harry Potter can even be easily be made out as another Christ-like figure if you look at it from a biblical perspective. (saves the world, almost dies, ect ect...

(does that help any?)

JoeC

01-25-2006, 12:17 AM

Due to the popularity of Harry Potter, I'd say that the reason for archetype is because the others are knocks offs of Harry Potter - knock offs hoping to pick up Potter's clientele and get a free ride to the bank. Just an observation...

As an aside: I have an almost neutral opinion of Harry Potter - neutral enough not to make my slight leaning known publicly. :)

Mick_Mack89

01-25-2006, 12:19 AM

Harry Potter was written in the late 1990's, I think. What about the books written prior to the Potter series. How could they copy something unwritten. :think:

JoeC

01-25-2006, 12:42 AM

Well, if you make your archetypes broad enough, you could say that anything within the same genre is merely falling into your defined archetype. That rather trivializes things very quickly.

Mick_Mack89

01-25-2006, 12:49 AM

Point taken. I can't refer you to anything specific.

marichino_freedom

01-25-2006, 11:17 PM

lord of the rings was written during world war 2. same for chronicles of narnia i think. harry potter is actually still being written...basically each of the h.p. books leads up to the ultimate battle of good vs. evil....thats just an incredibly broad sum-up

NeedGod

01-26-2006, 01:23 AM

yeah, but thnk about it, the good being potrayed here is actually evil disguised as good. sort of like lukewarm good.

FreeAtLast

01-26-2006, 02:37 PM

I totally dislike and disagree with magic-books and all that stuff.
It certainly is promoting Satan and not God.

"Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?"

We have to realize that there are only 2 forces in this world - one is evil (Satan) and the other one is good (God).

Where did these authors of those magic-books get their inspiriation from? Certainly not God. Magic is of the devil. People are inspired by either one side or the other. There is no inbetween.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

That´s exactly what they are doing. Trying to make ppl believe that evil is good!

Another scripture says: "...no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

I don´t think it´s "just" fantasy - but I don´t have a doubt that these ppl are inspired by demonic power.

Angelo

01-28-2006, 03:48 AM

Those stories are great when you look at a human point of view; how it was thought through and created... I heard that the idea just came spontaneously to the author, ppl really are made to get revelations, but from where it comes from? That is the question.

marichino_freedom

01-29-2006, 03:01 PM

well, as far as lord of the rings goes, it is technically fantasy because it is not about our world, it's a different world. and the author of narnia was a christian and even SAID that he wrote it with christian themes. just a thought, but to each his own.

and truthfully, if theses movies/books are bad, then so is cinderella, wizard of oz, etc.

JoeC

01-29-2006, 06:22 PM

You're right about that marachino, based on the sole principle that all magic is bad, then the Wizard of Oz and Cinderella stories would be bad as well.

So the question that comes to surface is are they? Or are other factors to be considered than just "op, it's magic! Must be wrong." Are there different kinds of magic? Different agendas? Different influences upon the writer? Different spirits at work when the reader partakes in the stories? Or maybe it's just as simple as all magic being bad.

chocolateismybestfriend

01-30-2006, 01:04 AM

Well i must say this thread is interesting.

I say do what you feel comfortable with, dont watch it or read it if you feel you shouldnt.
At the same time, if you havent read or seen the movies or stories i would say your judging the book or movie by its cover, you havent the bases to know what you're actually talking about in regards to what emphasis is put on "magic" and "witchcraft".

I take these movies and books and enjoy them as a "good vs evil" story. Story, that is it. Sure i can relate to it because all hell is against the Bride of Christ and we get battered daily, but in the end we shall be victorious. Of course Satan is much more beautiful than those monsters but we shall look beyond that.

It comes back to - your own personal walk. Truly.
While i may be comfortable with it if you know you wont be, dont bother. Life doesnt rest on whether you'll see or read books or movies with magic in it.

Unregistered

01-30-2006, 09:20 AM

It's the first time I've ever came to this forum and I personally was shocked when I read this discussion. I wonder what Bro. Branham would say about all these movies and that some people say it's not so bad at all. He'd be shocked! People in the Message (and especially the young people) have become so wishy-wahsy.
Those authors say that they put in Christian themes in their books. But how did they get the inspiration? The characters in all those movies aren't fantasy at all. I think that's what demons look like and those authors are actually Satanists, coz otherwise they could NEVER get an inspiration like that. They have seen those demons and that's why they can put them in so called "fantasy" movies and books.
There's a spirit on every book/movie/song... And you know what? There are only 2 spirits in this world. The Holy Spirit and the Anti-Christ spirit. So would you all say that those movies are inspired by the Holy Ghost? Definitely not! So where from comes the inspiration? Bro. Branham said: "Show me the music you listen to, the pictures in your house, books you read... and I'll tell you who you are". That's so true.
Time is running out and we shouldn't waste our time with things that are clearly from the devil. Be careful. I'm praying for the young ppl of this message. It's so important to receive the Holy Ghost... that should be the first priority!!! I'm one of you...just a sinner saved by grace. Don't compromise with the word. Stay close to Jesus, everyone of you!

BroTrevor

01-30-2006, 11:07 AM

Ok, I've been REALLY pondering this one for a long time. Since the first day I posted on this forum, I've been thinking of my position with regards to the subject matter at hand.

(what? a relevant post?? I digress...)

So here's what I have to admit to you all.

I like fantasy stories.

<gasp>

Be that as it may....I don't really like the dark ones, with dragons, and magic and witches or warlords.

I enjoyed Narnia, for it's Christian base, as well as for the fantasy story. When I read a book, I typically read to just get away for awhile. So that pretty much means I don't want a book about terrorism, crime, lawyers, court trials, murders, blah, blah, etc... you get the idea. THis is why I like fantasy...when I decide to take the time to read, I want to get away.

Now, that being said....the part about me not liking the dragony/magicy ones. I don't like those. I don't like "incantations" or "spells" probably because again, it's too close to spiritualism/cursing/satan worship/wicca/ blah blah etc... you get the idea. I don't like it...it seems wrong probably because it IS wrong.

Ok, so what I've been thinking is...I don't mind a "super-power" so to speak as long as it doesn't consist of being allied to a devil, or some dark incantation type magic. I've actually started the something or other of Kiriath series right now by Karen Hancock (Christian writer) where the power they have is a direct type to the Holy Spirit. The only ones who have this kind of power (used to defeat evil obviously) are those that have accepted God. Also in this book there is an "accepted" church in the country of Kiriath that is so typical of the catholic church it isn't even hard to pick that up. The hero of the book starts out in that church but finds his way to God and realizes that church had nothing of God at all. So I really like that. I enjoy the parrallels and the adventure. I do have to admit however, that in the first few chapters, it appears as if this "catholic-like" church is going to be the accepted form of religion as being "ok" in these books... Had that been the case, I wouldn't have finished the book.

Ok, so in order to not make this post super hugely long...

I'm VERY choosy about what I read. I'm ALSO (and I feel this is JUST as important as being choosy about content) VERY CHOOSY about HOW MUCH TIME I spend reading. For instance, when I get hooked into a good book, I CAN'T PUT IT DOWN. Ya know what this does to me? Book-worm goes up...prayer life goes down. It's almost a gurantee. HENCE, I have 2 books right now that I got for Christmas that I really am sure are going to be FANTASTIC...(one of them is by Ted Dekker...ever read the Circle triology?? Sooo good)...but because I KNOW I will have a hard time putting them down, and taking the time to pray...and because I KNOW I am starting to prepare myself for the Tucson meetings in March...I don't want to take the TIME.

Hence, I'm "redeeming the time"

So in a nutshell... be CHOOSY about not only the CONTENT you read...but also the TIME it takes. (kinda like movies, friendships, etc...)

It's all about Jesus after all.

-Trevor

HIS.WONDERS.TO.PERFORM_ CHICAGO.IL SUNDAY_ 58-0112A
It was while those who went to Emmaus, along the road, begin to talk about Him, that He stepped out of the bushes and walked with them through the day. The reason we don't have the spiritual blessings, we have too much time to watch television, too much time to read the newspapers or listen to some thing that we ought not to be listening to. And we are not redeeming the time, but we're giving it to the things of the world instead of our time to the Lord Jesus. And the Bible said, that, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God." Christians live on the Word.

NeedGod

01-30-2006, 11:18 AM

i think reading those books isnt bad at all as long as they dont influence you. which by the way is more likely than you think.

collegegirl

01-30-2006, 01:21 PM

I have to jump in now. I do enjoy fantasy, (ie, usually means magic), like cinderella, and I do enjoy the chronicles of narnia. But I agree in the fact of moderation. There is enjoyment, and then there is obsessment.

I had this one particular book that was your type of "good" magic vs. the "bad" magic. I loved the book. I practically knew the book inside and out. I had my favorite parts. But I really started getting into the book...too much. There were some very, almost inappropriate parts in the book, but just yet clean enough not to be dirty. I really liked the book, but after 2005 WYR, I realized that I needed to get rid of the book. I threw it away, because I knew that it would not please the Lord to have that in my library. The flesh really liked the book, but I know now that the Lord wasn't pleased with the book.

Also, remember that Bro. Branham said that that if there is any doubt, don't do it.

JoeC

01-30-2006, 02:17 PM

...I say do what you feel comfortable with, dont watch it or read it if you feel you shouldnt...

...relate to it because all hell is against the Bride of Christ and we get battered daily, but in the end we shall be victorious.

I agree with you in that one should let their own Holy Spirit lead them in decisions where there hasn't been a clear, across the board right or wrong established.

However, I don't feel that Harry Potter can be spiritualized. Sure, you can run some vague parallels, but you can do the same thing with The Big Bad Wolf & the Three Little Pigs. So just being able to run a parallel is an insufficient condition upon which to judge a book. There really needs to be a lot more to the argument before adapting it as one's conviction.

FreeAtLast

01-30-2006, 02:23 PM

JoeC

01-30-2006, 02:46 PM

I still have yet to see a convincing argument from either side (argument being defined as reason giving). That is, an argument structured with solid premises that flow coherently from one to the other without leaving gaps of reasoning between the given points.

I do agree with those who speak of moderation and especially with Brother Trevor when he speaks of not indulging in books to much... I'm a big day-dreamer. When I read spend a large amount of my time reading, I get caught up in their world - whether it's this world or some fantasy world, it becomes fantasy in my own mind.

Rightness or wrongness of fantasy as a genre or certain fantasy books in particular... I'm still undecided - though I'd really love to see a well thought argument on it.

BroTrevor

01-30-2006, 03:23 PM

In truthfulness, I was having a hard time coming up with a "well-formed" argument myself. This thread has made me consider much on this topic...which I am thankful for.

I am not as quick to agree that this is just all evil and that any fantasy story is of the devil per se. If so, please pray that I receive a more clear revelation. I just can't come up with much of what Bro Branham would say regarding this subject in the message, and hence, it is hard to come up with a well-formed, convincing argument either way.

The more I consider it, the more I do not like Harry Potter, nor would I let my kids read them. I have seen a couple of the movies, but movies is something God is still working on in my life, and I believe He has made great strides. Today, I know I will not watch another one of them.

I am willing to say that any type of dark "magic" in books I believe to be evil. Unless the book is obviously portraying such as evil, I don't agree with it. I believe this is an attempt, by the devil, for us to trivialize this type of thing and become comfortable, or as He said, "impressioned" by this kind of magic and such.

I refuse however; to be so legalistic as to never touch another book in my life...I do not believe this is correct. We are to be spirit led. The Spirit I believe is definitely steering me away from Harry Potter, and I am beginning to question another series I own, and hence I will probably be rid of it. (argh! but I'm only 2 books from the end!!) So you see I still struggle with that kind of thing. Perhaps I should journey over to the "just leave it alone thread" and read for awhile.

Anyhow... JoeC... you seem to be very good at starting topics, why don't you give us a well formed argument on the subject! <grin>

BroTrevor

01-30-2006, 03:36 PM

BUT.IT.WASN'T.SO.FROM.THE.BEGINNING_ BLOOMINGTON.IL TUESDAY_ 61-0411
Anybody knows a fortuneteller's of the devil. Any of that kind of dark magic is of the devil. But it's... What is--what is wrong? It's something that's right, perverted. What is a sin? It's righteousness perverted. What is an adultery? A righteous act perverted. What is--what is a--a lie? Is a truth perverted. See? All unrighteousness...

THE.UNCERTAIN.SOUND_ SPOKANE.WA SATURDAY_ 62-0714
But the people with their ecclesiastical wind-up, they begin to think, "Oh, well. You know, that's some kind of a..." just like they did with Jesus. They said, "Well, He's Beelzebub. He's a fortuneteller, a devil." Beelzebub was a devil spirit. They said He was doing that like a fortuneteller, a Beelzebub. And anybody knows that fortunetelling is a devil. Sure it is. Any of that seance, and black magic, and stuff, is the devil. Sure it is. It's the devil trying to impersonate Christ. Because there is a devil, that shows there is a Christ. As long as there's a wrong, there's a right it come off of. Amen. As long as we've got a fortuneteller, it shows we've got a real prophet somewhere. That's right. Oh, how I thank God for His goodness.

So we can easily see, that seance, and black magic is of the devil. If that is the type of stuff that is in a book, I'll easy say its wrong, and this is why I've steered and am steering clear of this type of book.

So, there's a "reason giving" argument, against things that have black magic in them. I guess now it's your definition of black magic, but I would think reasonably most definitions would be the same.

Other scriptures for reference

ACTS 19:19
19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

ACTS 8:9 - 11
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

GALATIANS 5:19 - 20
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

JoeC

01-30-2006, 04:11 PM

Anyhow... JoeC... you seem to be very good at starting topics, why don't you give us a well formed argument on the subject! <grin>

I can't develop an argument right now because I'm neutral.

I will, however, attempt to suggest an algorithm for the argument:

Is fantasy as a genre acceptible. Reasons to why or why not.

If the answer is no, after sufficient reason giving, the argument stops.

If fantasy is acceptible, then we have a whole list of other questions to determine under what conditions fantasy is acceptible.

Who is the author?

What does this tell us? (ex: examining the author's character gives us a feel for what fruits we can expect from his literary works.)

What message is this author trying to convey?

If his motive for writing was righteous, are we sure that the outcome is still righteous (is it a blessing to the reader as the author intended)?

Is magic acceptible in literature?

If so, are there different types of magic?

If there are different types of magic, how do we determine when we have crossed the line from acceptible to inacceptible use of magic as a literary element?

If a person can sufficiently reason out these points while using accepted authorities to support their reasoning (in our case, the Bible and the Message), then I feel that they have a well thought out structure for making a decision.

Mick_Mack89

01-30-2006, 08:06 PM

Okay I'm gonna try again. I do not see a problem with "magic" (for lack of a better term) in a story, as long as the story is used as a parable or an allegory. Something that isn't glorifiying the "magic", like Chronicles of Narnia. Also I'd like to point out that to the"unlearned and ignorant people" the holy ghost moving supernatureally would to them appear to be "magic." I found this excerpt where even Bro. Branham used "magic" this way in a fairy tale.

COME.FOLLOW.ME_ TUCSON.AZ SATURDAY_ 63-0601
94 Little story one time I heard, of a man who was, oh, he was poor. And he--he always wanted to... It's a little fairy story, like. It always stuck with me, though. And one day he picked a flower. And the flower was magic, and the flower answered to him, and said, "You've been poor all your life." He said, "Now ask what you will, and it'll be given to you."
95 He said, "That yonder's mountain would open up, and I could go therein and find the gold in the mountain."
96 "Well," he said, "you will have to take me with you wherever you go. See? You'll have to take me with you. So, wherever I am, then you can ask what you will."

COME.FOLLOW.ME_ TUCSON.AZ SATURDAY_ 63-0601
97 He walked to the mountain, and the mountain opened up, and he went in. The shelves was full of gold and diamonds, as the little fairy story goes. He laid the flower down on a--on a table or a rock. And he run, he grabbed a great big gem, and he said, "I must go show this to my friends. And now I'm a rich man. I have everything now. I must show this."
98 And so the flower spoke, "But," said, "you have forgot the main thing."
99 So he runs back and picks up, said, "Well, maybe I'll--I'll get a piece of gold. I'll get a piece of silver." And so he said, "I'll--I'll hurry out, to tell the people how rich I am, and what all I've got."
100 And he got to the door, and the flower said, "But you forgot the main thing." 101 So he runs back again. He said, "In here we find all kinds of materials." So, he picked up a stone. He said, "I'll go, take this stone and show the people what kind of a stone this mountain is made out of, so I can find my way back to it." See?
102 And he started out the door, and the flower said, for the... its final time, "You have forgot the main thing."
"Oh," he said, "oh, shut up."
103 See, he didn't want to hear it any more, "Forgot the main thing," and he ran out the door. And when he did, the door closed behind him, with the flower on the inside. The main thing was the flower. See? The main thing was the flower.

HotShot53

01-31-2006, 01:41 AM

Ok, I'll try to use Joe's algorithm...

"Is fantasy as a genre acceptable. Reasons to why or why not."
I would have to say, for myself, in general, fantasy using magic and spells would not be acceptable. I am not saying that using "magic" as a phrase to describe something that isn't explainable is bad, or as an illustration in a story to make a point... what I consider not right is when magic spells become one of the central parts of the story. Just because a book has the theme of good versus evil doesn't seem to make it ok. People who are just starting to learn magic spells in real life believe themselves to be good, and fighting evil. I guess my main argument is just that I can't see how something that is never ever right in real life can be acceptable as the main basis of a book, even if it does have some themes that could possibly relate to some good principles. Even if it is just fiction, what we become familiar with in fiction can sometimes too easily become common to us and transfer into the real world. (I'm not saying that anyone who reads spells in books will go out and try them... but it may weaken your resistance). Again, I view it as Christian rock... it can be taken as having a good meaning, but it is not inspired by God.

NeedGod

01-31-2006, 02:22 AM

that makes sense Hotshot. and even sometimes, we dont realize when we get influenced. like when we hear a song and find ourselves singing it over and over, we have been influenced without our knowledge. we start getting nuetral over things when this happens and slowly and slowly, we become lukewarm. anyway, i only think if we are unsure, we should just leave it alone. Come quickly Lord Jesus

Unregistered

01-31-2006, 06:27 AM

Shocking to hear all you guys answers...
I truly believe it's not an option to think "It's not that bad at all". A prophet who preached against Rock music surely wouldn't have approved of Narnia!
Someone said that we have to be careful that it doesn't have an influence when you read such books. EVERYTHING has an influence on you. It's like you only leave a service being a better Christian or a worse Christian. Every book you read, every movie you watch, every friendship you have has some kind of an influence on you.
I think you should be very careful in what you write on here. There are younger ppl that don't have the Holy Ghost, ppl who struggle. You will influence them and then after all they'll think it's not that bad to read those books, coz "everyone does it".
I wish we could make this discussion face2face and more personal and that you'd see that I'm really talking to you in love and not because I want to be mean and want to take anything away from you. I suggest that you talk to your pastors about this. If someone does it, I'd like to hear what you pastors said, so maybe you can let me know.God bless you all. I pray that God will lead you and guide you. - A fellow pilgrim

FreeAtLast

01-31-2006, 12:52 PM

Bro. Branham told us to kick out the TV and we bring that stuff back into our houses through books, videos and DVD´s.
When we look back at the TV-program in the sixties it seemed to be so harmless (inoffensive) compared to all the stuff in our days. And just remember how much the Prophet spoke against it then - how much more today?

With the argument "everything in moderation" we could justify everything.

For instance: Going to the cinema just once month instead of every week is moderate. But does that make it right?

The bible and the message don´t call out for MODERATION but rather more for SEPERATION of the things of the world.

FreeAtLast

01-31-2006, 01:24 PM

Bro. Trevor. God bless you for being so honest and sincere!

BroTrevor

01-31-2006, 06:29 PM

Is fantasy as a genre acceptible. Reasons to why or why not.

If the answer is no, after sufficient reason giving, the argument stops.

If fantasy is acceptible, then we have a whole list of other questions to determine under what conditions fantasy is acceptible.

Ok, there are some who may be unfamiliar with Fantasy and said genre. Not ALL fantasy books have magic in them. Just because MOST do, does not mean ALL do.

I personally make the distinction between "powers" and magic.

I define Magic as such: The use of spiritual incantations/seance/spells/wand waving/cursing/hexing etc...

I would define other powers as: special gifts or abilities born in a person (whether they are actual gifts in this world or not)

I personally feel that fantasy as a genre is acceptable, as long as your are discerning in your choices. I never used to be as discerning as I am now.

That being said, I would have to follow JoeC's matrix to determine what may be and what may not be acceptable.

I also agree with Hotshot, use of magic (see definition), whether to fight evil or not is unacceptable. This would in my view be actually worse, making cases for "acceptable magic". This is an oxymoron.

Mack has pointed out that Bro Branham read some fantasy, and we know many times he talks about wanting to be like Tarzan, so you know he read that (maybe some wouldn't consider it fantasy, but I think I would).

While I agree we can use the argument "everything in moderation" as an excuse, I don't believe this is how I take it. I refuse to lock myself up in a room for the sake of keeping myself pure. This is not the picture of a victorious Christian. As I posted in another thread, we MUST be good at being spirit led AND "trying the spirits". That being said, I also don't agree with throwing myself into bars and other establishments just to say "I'm a victorious Christian".

I personally have been really blessed by some books, I find that after reading books, I am not as tired, more refreshed, and in a general good mood. After reading Ted Dekker's "The Circle" trilogy I was so awestruck by the love of God, I was almost weeping in my room. I would classify this book as Christian Fantasy.

All things are lawful, but all things are not expedient. I want to focus on those things that are expedient for me. I will not however say that ALL fantasy books are evil...unless God changes my heart on the matter, which believe me - I am open to, I cannot say this. What good does it do me to throw out all my fantasy books if I still have the desire within me to read them?

Sorry, JoeC - this post probably isn't succinct, concise, nor well articulated but I wanted to weigh in again.

Mick_Mack89

01-31-2006, 07:43 PM

Hotshot I'd like to ask, have you read "The Chronicles of Narnia"? I think I remember you once telling me that you read (at least part of) "Lord of the Rings." Because now that I think back on it, I think the two different series had different tones. LOTR seems to have been much more brutal, more action thriller, than the Chronicles. Also While your argument sounded good, you didn't really back it up other than a loose comparison to Christian rock. That's a little to general for me.

HotShot53

01-31-2006, 07:45 PM

Not ALL fantasy books have magic in them. Just because MOST do, does not mean ALL do.

To clarify what I had said, I was referring only to fantasy books that contain magic as defined by Bro. Trevor. I don't really have a problem with fantasy books like tarzan and space science fiction and such.

Mick_Mack89

01-31-2006, 07:50 PM

Were you responding to my questions with that? :think:

HotShot53

01-31-2006, 07:55 PM

No, that wasn't in reply to you Matt.. I had already been replying before you posted your question. In answer to your question, no, I've never read the Narnia books. As I said in my last post (and I'm sure you've heard me say it other places), "I guess my main argument is just that I can't see how something that is never ever right in real life can be acceptable as the main basis of a book, even if it does have some themes that could possibly relate to some good principles."

Mick_Mack89

01-31-2006, 08:17 PM

Hmm... Okay, since you haven't read them I tell you something you probably haven't realized. In the Chronicles, there are two forces at work, good and evil. However only Asland (the Christ figure) and the main bad person (Devil figure) are capable of creating magic. That is not to say that "gifts" are not used by the "normal" people which are bestowed upon them by either Asland or the Devil figure. I cannot say with surety (haven't read the books in a long time) but I don't believe any incanatation like things were said by anyone. So if what I have just stated above is true, and if the series is really a parable refering to the christian life (which I believe without a doubt it is, the themes aren't just possibly related to christianity, they are related), then I can't see any problem with the books from your stated thesis. In our christian walk today we are given the gifts to use to fight the enemy, increase our faith, etc. In the Chronicles the protagonists are also given "magic" gifts. They aren't wondering around spouting spells and the like.

(Have I stated myself clearly?)

HotShot53

02-01-2006, 12:13 AM

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. Since I haven't read them, and since they are commonly regarded as Christian books, I don't have an opinion one way or the other about them now. What I was referring to more was books like Lord of the Rings.

Mick_Mack89

02-01-2006, 12:28 AM

Lord of The Rings is very different than the Chronicles I'll give you that. There is dafenatly the use of spells and th elike in there but there are still only certain people who can (for lack of a better word) create "magic". There are Wizerds and other kinds of, i don't know, things in there. I'll have to see what I can think up, and how to try to defend it. Maybe I'll change my mind. But there is definatly something wrong with the way some people have glorified the books and the movies. I know hotshot has seen it at my church. Many people have gooten carried away into that "middle earth" world. They let it influence them greatly.

(Hotshot I think you should at least read the Chronicles. Just to clarify your own thoughts on it. Just make sure you're not against it (if you stay against it) because of prior predjudices.)

ancy

02-01-2006, 05:07 AM

I study english literature (its my third year) and I was in my 1st year when I completely gave my heart to the Lord. So I did't choose my college by following the Spirit like one should. In my education I have to read books in order to pass exams and most of them are classics (like The Great Gatsby, Women in Love, Shakespeare, Blake, and so on and so on...) I mostly avoid reading them as much as I possibly can. Why? Because every one of them is a creation of a wordly lost soul that has a spirit working through them. Its not always obvious and is sometimes very subtle. I prayed so God will protect me from the few I really have to read...
Those other that you all are refering to are in my opinion something that does not edify to anyones character or their walk with God; as freeatlast said: ˝The bible and the message don´t call out for MODERATION but rather more for SEPERATION of the things of the world.˝
I know that locking yourself in a room and throwing out the key isn't an answer, but that is not what not reading fiction is. You don't have to try the world and discern with your feelings (what you feel like when you read it ar after). They are really not to be trusted - I think you all know that better than me (I am just a babe in the Lord). You all have probably more experience than I do, but literature is something that used to be a problem in my walk with God - it influenced me and I didn't know it. I'm just trying to share the little experience that I do have.
When the LOTR came out (the first part), I watched it and will never ever watch it again. I was so angry with myself, and I felt far away from God like maybe few times in my life after my conversion. There aren't many arguments against fiction that cannot be desputed, I think that this is something a Christian has to settle with God. But as for me, there is apsolutely no dillema whatsoever. I don't want to soud preachy but we do live in a world and age where mens hearts are being occupied by television and music and games which are all a non reality and thus - fiction in a way. It has to influence you by some degree and it really can and it will. Books are also all fiction (except for the ones that we all read and enjoy). They all come from the same tree of good and evil and always have a good and a bad attached. Some of the fruits of that tree we have to consume, like computers, internet and cars, but some of them we don't have to and don't want to.
If consuming fiction of tghis world is separation, then I must have a wrong perception of the meaning of the word separation.
I relly hope I made some sense in all this...

Anny

02-01-2006, 05:48 AM

dear young ppl:

we should run away from those worldly things, especially when satanic power is so clearly shown in those books/movies. wether black or white magic: it is all from the devil. I wonder why even in the message ppl seem to be blind for those things!

get away from the boarder! nowadays young ppl want to be as much as they can close to the boarder: to wordly things! run for your life and leave this unhealthy place/condition!

Br. Branham said that the main problem of the churches in this last time is WORLDLYNESS !!! Be aware : Do not ignore this warning. MODERATION seems to be the formular for our days.... is it not like this that very often this word is disused and you can take it as a synonyme for "lukewarm"

Do not read/listen/watch those satanic inspired "witch-things"! Run for your life away from this ground, it may catch you easier than you can be delivered from it and it can cause you real trouble!

God bless. Anny
librarian , univers. degree

JoeC

02-01-2006, 06:03 PM

OK, we've had several people claim that the use of the word moderation is a scape goat for the lukewarm believer.

Obviously, no one here would say that pornography in moderation is OK, or that lying in moderation is OK, or even rebellion in moderation is OK.

Those who are using the term moderation in the case for books are using it because they do not believe that the given books which they are speaking of are wrong. If they did, they would not moderate in it... they would seperate from it. The reason they feel they may indulge with moderation is because they only see it being wrong when over indulged in.

From that perspective, moderation has a very legitimate use and should not be condemned. The idea behind moderation of things that would, in non disproportional doses, be acceptible for the believer is a biblical idea (The Bible says "put a knife to thy throaght if thou be a man given to appetite," not "do not eat if thou be a man given to appetite).

It is the practice that one should focus on proving to be wrong, not the mentality of moderation. If you can prove something is wordly, then yes, absolute seperation is required. If you can't prove it Biblically and/or with the Message, then one shouldn't condemn others who see it in a different light.

To bring things up to date:

My personal feelings about the main three literary works in question and other points mentioned is as follows:

I agree that witchcraft (spells, curses, incantations, etc) is unacceptible in a story unless it is clearly defined as being evil. Even then, there must be a case by case review.

Harry Potter: Although the movies can be entertaining (I've caught glimpes only), the idea behind it is something I am not comfortable with.

Lord of the Rings: I have seen the first two movies. No doubt they are entertaining, but I have no wish to see the third movie. Perhaps the book was written with Christian undertones (I didn't read it, so I don't know) - but if so, they didn't carry over well into the Hollywood production.

Chronicles of Narnia: I've only seen the older version on video. I have no problems with it (though my memory is sketchy) and I think it's a great allegorical work that is truly inspiring.

I know everyone doesn't agree with me here - if you think I am wrong I am more than open to both your prayers and constructive criticism. Whatever your slant here, I don't think it de-Christianizes you - though it may weaken you.

JoeC

02-01-2006, 07:03 PM

...A prophet who preached against Rock music surely wouldn't have approved of Narnia!
I don't think equating rock music to Chornicles of Narnia is a fair statement.

Chronicles of Narnia was published and popular during Brother Branham's lifetime. If he had as strong a conviction against it as he had rock music, I'm sure he would have mentioned it. As it is, Brother Branham didn't mention it once.

Mick_Mack89

02-01-2006, 11:08 PM

JMG

02-02-2006, 12:45 AM

Ahem, to interject my two cents...

I think the whole gist of people considering the Chronicles Of Narinia, or the Lord Of The Rings, right or wrong, is do to personal preference.

I have read both series of books and can testify that the Chronicles Of Narnia and The Lord Of The Rings are both an excellent series of books. However, of course I would be biased towards the Chronicles Of Narnia and The Lord Of The Rings, because I have preference for those types of books. But, of course if I was biased against them, I do not like those types of books, I would be joining the rest of the forumers in trying to convince everyone how "evil" the books are. But, the books are not evil, they are really good.
To the ones who are trying to convince everyone else that the Chronicles Of Narnia and The Lord Of The Rings are "evil" books, you should read them. If you do, you might find out that you enjoy them. :)

JMG

02-02-2006, 12:49 AM

Also... To do the books justice, do not compare them to the movies that have been made of them. One of the worst insults a good book can recieve is having a movie made from it, and the people comparing the movie to the book.

HotShot53

02-02-2006, 12:54 AM

I did start to read the Lord of the Rings books... and I agree, it is well written, but I couldn't get past the fact that magic was the central part of the books.

Mick_Mack89

02-02-2006, 01:01 AM

I can understand that hotshot

ancy

02-02-2006, 04:04 AM

Ok. I read the first Harry Potter book and one half of the first LOTR book while I was in the world. I liked them. I haven't watched HP movies but I have watched LOTR (first part). I can't speek about the Cronicals cause I haven't read the book nor watched the movie. Our television broadcasted a series about 10 years ago and I hardly remember anything but a closet and a lion and that's it.
So I don't get it. The question here is whether these are worldly???? :think:
The themes are magic, imagination, other worlds that don't exist, spiritualism. Magic is the least of all the things that bother me. Titanic is a great film with no magic in it and is still out of the question and you all are discussing these like they are ok? Somebody even said that it's ok to watch Star Trek??????? :aaaah:
I don't mean to be out of my place, I relly say this with all the love I should feel for brothers and sisters, but we ought to wake up!
Does anybody mention Christ or even Christianity?? Nooooooo! And the book is no different! Is music in those movies Christian? No!
Are the creators of those films and books Christians? No - at least not Spirit filled ones!
So what is the dillema??? :think:

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 08:24 AM

You anti-magic people out there, please-please-please, say something besides 'magic is wrong'. Your merely stating an opinion, and it's not helping me at all. It may be bright as day to you why you think the magic genre is wrong, but your not clear to me. And use the bible or the message to back your statement. Have a real basis for your viewpoint. Saying that we need seperation from the world isn't helping either. What we are discussing is wheather or not these books are "worldly".

If those books are not worldly than what is worldly??? Please explain!

In fact, those books are not even "just" worldly but also directly inspired by demonic power. Magic is of the devil. There is no good and bad magic. Like said before - there are only to powers in this world - one is of God and one is of the devil. Magic is NOT of God but is of the Devil himself! It´s not the Holy-Ghost power doing those "miracles" and supernatural things in those books - it´s satanic power. I don´t know how much more clearer I could say it.

Bro. Branham condemned the TV-program in the sixties and spoke very harsh against it. ("Who loves Susie" and all those movies were more harmless than even the children´s program in our day!)
What would he say about the stuff that we are watching/reading today?

JoeC

02-02-2006, 09:57 AM

Is music in those movies Christian? No! Are the creators of those films and books Christians? No - at least not Spirit filled ones!

Correction please. While the film makers may or may not be Christians (I don't know), the writers of the Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings are. We've said as much. Now I don't know about Tolkien (though he's a Catholic and he said his book was a Catholic work). However, I am familiar with C.S. Lewis and know him to have been an outstanding Christian. I would not begin to think of putting the man down because he didn't catch the revelation for this hour.

Brother Branham didn't trivialize others for not agreeing with him or for not having been fully brought into the baptism of the Holy Spirit - I don't think we should either. One can't just wave a statement like that over someone and then dismiss their life's works. There must be a further study of the individual.

Also, as far as music goes, I cannot believe that you have never been blessed by a work of music that was not written by a Christian. I have been blessed myself by plenty of music (such as Celtic) that was not a solely Christian work. Anyhow, that's another discussion (http://www.yqnews.org/forums/showthread.php?t=161). Keep in mind that the music in the movies, good or bad, should have no reflection on the literary work.

Now, I do agree with some of the other posters who have said that young people are letting their guard down when it comes to their entertainment selections. The trend to stay on top of all the newest releases is something that does call for concern. That's a whole different issue for a whole different thread. We're talking about magic in literature and film - specifically in the works Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, and Chronicles of Narnia.

I believe we are all in agreement that magic is impermissible under the following circumstances:

When magic is not taking being used as a tool, but rather it is the main element, the center of the story.
When the magic being used AND glorified is the sort that would fall into the following: incantations/seance/spells/wand waving/cursing/hexing
OK, if anyone has a broader acceptance of magic, go ahead and post. Otherwise, let's take it from there.

Again, for all contributors of this thread, please do not tout opinion statements to be fact or even good reasons without supporting them with an outside authority. In this case, the acceptable outside authorities are the Bible and the Message. Opinion statements without supporting reasons and outside authorities have no convincing power and as such do nothing but make the opinioned feel good.

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 10:46 AM

Chronicles of Narnia was published and popular during Brother Branham's lifetime. If he had as strong a conviction against it as he had rock music, I'm sure he would have mentioned it. As it is, Brother Branham didn't mention it once.

There are literally thousands of books in this world that are not acceptable in the side of God. Just because Bro. Branham didnt mention Narnia doesn´t mean that those books are ok. He also didnt mention many other books - yet still that doesn´t make them right!

If you have time please go to Wikipedia and type in: MAGIC. (it´s too much to paste in here).

Bro. Trevor quoted this before:

Acts 19:19
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

I just want to make clear that I am not speaking so strong against Magic because I like to argue about things. God knows my heart, I am very much concerned. It makes me so sad that ppl can´t see that in those books witchcraft/sorcery is being exalted.

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 11:40 AM

Again, for all contributors of this thread, please do not tout opinion statements to be fact or even good reasons without supporting them with an outside authority. In this case, the acceptable outside authorities are the Bible and the Message. Opinion statements without supporting reasons and outside authorities have no convincing power and as such do nothing but make the opinioned feel good.

So we could say:

""Please do a message-search for **** I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t think the prophet mentioned these. If not, it means we can do this. Halleluuu!""

I know I am exaggerating here. But is Bro. Branham supposed to mention every worldly book that was ever published? (I am referring here to JoeC´s statement that Bro. Branham never mentioned NARNIA).

BroTrevor

02-02-2006, 11:45 AM

FreeAtLast... just for full disclosure...

Have you personally read Narnia? If so, which books? The whole series? Just the first book?

Please, let us know for the purposes of this discussion. I think we realize you are adamantly against the 3 book series in question being 1) Narnia 2) Harry Potter. 3) Lord of the Rings.

Have you read them? Have you seen any of the movies?

We understand you are very concerned, and many of us agree with you to a point I'm sure, but we ask that you temper your zeal with a little patience, understanding, and love.

BroTrevor

02-02-2006, 11:53 AM

So we could say:

""Please do a message-search for **** I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t think the prophet mentioned these. If not, it means we can do this. Halleluuu!""

I know I am exaggerating here. But is Bro. Branham supposed to mention every worldly book that was ever published? (I am referring here to JoeC´s statement that Bro. Branham never mentioned NARNIA).

Yes, this is exaggerated. For instance, I don't believe any of us have decided that we can watch DVD's just because Bro Branham never specifically mentioned DVDs. I personally strive not to be too overly legalistic as I feel I have come from a fairly legalistic background. To say it's all OK or it's all WRONG based on whether Bro Branham said anything about it or not isn't the point. I think the point is, are some of these acceptable or not, and if so, what is or isn't?

Based on what we've discussed, and the leading of the Spirit, I believe Harry Potter is as JoeC said, "impermissible". LOTR I am a little leary of, although I don't quite condemn anyone else if they would read those books, and Narnia, I thoroughly enjoyed.

Again, if I am wrong, I must be open to God changing my heart as we all must. HE takes first place in our lives.

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 12:23 PM

Bro. Trevor, I have never read those books and I have no intention of reading any of them and I will certainly not watch any of those movies! (the advertisment of those movies are already enough to put me off completly).

The reason why I am voicing my opinion so strongly is simply because I believe those magic-books are totally inspired by demonic-power and thus will certainly not bring us closer to God... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Ephesians 6:12).

Maybe you have never experienced any demonic-power in life but as sure as there is a supernatural Holy-Ghost there is also a supernatual power of the Enemy. The Devil is working through magic.

I am very honest with you. I´d never thought that this is a subject to be even discussed amongst message-believers.

When it comes to MAGIC I don´t think there is a inbetween or a neutral ground. The bible never speaks positive about magicians.

Exodus 7:11
Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 10And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

Anny

02-02-2006, 12:32 PM

Free at last:
Yes, you just wrote what I wanted to say:
We are not at a picnic. It is war - and we really have to be aware of those demon possed things.

Anny

JoeC

02-02-2006, 01:49 PM

Indeed, it is apparent that you have never read the books and that your perceptions are based solely on Hollywood's advertisements/propaganda of their own interpretations of these works.

Perhaps you should find out what you are really speaking against before you continue on in this conversation.

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 02:12 PM

I am not trying to be funny, but do you really think that if I am totally convinced that magic is of the devil I will even get near that stuff?

From what I read about those books the main theme of those books is magic (witchcraft). I want to run away from things like this and don´t even want to taste them.

Or should I smoke a cigarette first before I can say it is wrong?

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 02:28 PM

A few years ago a colleague at work gave me a book of Harry Potter for my birthday. It was very hard for me and I really didnt want to offend her but I had to tell her that I wouldn´t read that book because of all the witchcraft going on in there. She knew I was a christian and respected my opinion after explaining to her.

Ppl we are living in Satan´s Eden and many things are very subtled and we dont even realize them, but Magic (witchcraft/sorcery) is not even subtled to begin with and still we don´t want to realize that it is wrong?

Friends if you´d only could see my heart. I feel so sad about the whole issue.

Elleke

02-02-2006, 03:29 PM

JoeC

02-02-2006, 03:52 PM

Or should I smoke a cigarette first before I can say it is wrong?

No, but you should know what a cigarette is before you say it's wrong.

I think our argument is quickly becoming one of semantics - I find it necessary to set up a few definitions (courtesy of dictionary.com)

witch·craft
n.

Magic; sorcery.
Wicca.
A magical or irresistible influence, attraction, or charm.
So, we see that witchcraft's type of magic is that which concerns sorcery.

sor·cer·y
n. Use of supernatural power over others through the assistance of spirits; witchcraft.

I would agree with you that witchcraft/sorcery is of the Devil. Any supernatural power that overpowers someone is not of God (Christ is a perfect gentleman, only coming in when invited).

Now, let's have a look at the meaning of the word magic:

mag·ic
n.

The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.
The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.
A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm).
adj.

Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: “stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time” (John Milton).
Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects.
So we can quickly see that some magic, such as that in definition one, is totally in line with scripture. After all, didn't Christ control the weather in the Bible? Don't we, as Christians, invoke the supernatural?

So it comes to semantics. Just because someone tells you that a book has magic in it, doesn't automatically disqualify the book. One needs to find out how the person is using the word magic.

BroTrevor

02-02-2006, 03:54 PM

Ok, I really don't think Narnia is really all about Magic. I personally don't even call what is in there magic.

So why should I call this wrong?

Elleke...

Do you never do anything that is not making yourself ready? My number one goal is making myself ready for Jesus Christ. Ask my friends, ask those that know me, you will (I believe) hear that I am passionate about the Lord, and am passionate about others knowing and living for the Lord, just as you are.

That being said, there are things I find interesting that I do not feel is wrong. The amount of time I spend in reading a book is very negligent. I have had 2 books on my shelf since Christmas, and I am very excited about reading them, yet there are other priorities over these. I MAKE SURE God is first in my life.

Should we spend our time mowing the lawn? How about work? We still plant our potatoes as Bro Branham said.

I feel you are blowing this way out of proportion. The people that have participated in this conversation's hearts are in the right place. They are asking others for thoughts and advice and scriptures for their edification.

The disconnect seems to be you obviously view Narnia (I use this one as I feel is it the best out of the three) and fantasy as a genre as evil as you view smoking. OK, we get it. Until the rest of us get this revelation, pray!

I would appreciate you at least reading the first book in the Narnia series, it is WAY different than Harry Potter. I don't feel you could read this book, and decide that the supposed "magic" in it is so very evil that the book and its message are not worth reading.

-Trevor

redeemed_lizzi

02-02-2006, 04:36 PM

Just to put my two penny's worth here, but I have read all Harry Potter Books LOTR trilogy and want to read the Chronicles of Narnia. I can understand people's objections to Harry Potter, but to the LOTR and Narnia, I cant really see it. You need to understand why they were written, before you can make an unbiased decision.You cannot go by what Hollywood gives you when it comes to these books or any book. Or should we belive their account of christianity when it comes to a film like the sacreligious Jesus Christ Superstar? I feel that with these things you have to be led. If you have no conviction what so ever to read those books then God bless you, don't let anyone change your mind. If you do read them and there is nothing in your heart convincing you otherwise then good for you too. If I am totally wrong about this then God forgive me and help me to see the error of my ways. But as of this moment I can see nothing wrong with them.
Magic ocurrs in the oldest of Fairy tales such as Cinderella. Is it wrong then?And if not then when does it become wrong? And if you wanted to be very picky then you should really vet all the Fairy stories, because a lot of them have pretty dodgy histories. Little Red Riding Hood was not so innocent.....

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 04:48 PM

No, but you should know what a cigarette is before you say it's wrong.

I think our argument is quickly becoming one of semantics - I find it neccessary to set up a few definitions (courtesy of dictionary.com)

[b]
[/list]So, we see that witchcraft's type of magic is that which converns sorcery.

[b]

Now, let's looks at magic:

[b]
[/list]So we can quickly see that some magic, such as that in definition one, is totally in line with scripture. After all, didn't Christ control the weather in the Bible? Don't we, as Christians, invoke the supernatural?

So it comes to semantics. Just because someone says something has magic in it, dnesn't automatically disqualify it. One needs to find out what the word magic means in that case.

Very true that magic is in line with scripture. But in a negative way!!

Exodus 8:
5And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.

6And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.

7And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt

They are controlling nature too. Does that make it positive?

Acts 8:
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

The bible says that they gave heed to Simon the socerer, they were even saying that he was the great power of God. He sure must have down some "good" supernatural things - otherwise they wouldn´t have thought that his power was from God.

There are no 2 ways about Magic. It´s the power the devil is working through. And no doubt it´s supernatural and sometimes it even looks good and similar to God´s power (like the Magicians in Egypt - they did the very same that Moses did!) And still they were of the devil.

chocolateismybestfriend

02-02-2006, 05:21 PM

I read all the comments on this subject and I am really shocked !!! I really have to take sides with freeatlast and some few others, who are not ashamed to take their stand for bible and message.

We live in the last days and should be occupied with "making ourselves ready". We all want to be in the Bride, isn`t it ? Let us start to throw out all the dirt out of our lives. Therefore we need the Holy Ghost and once we get this, nobody has to tell you that this stuff is not the right thing for christians. The Holy Ghost takes the desire away, so you don`t need that anymore.

I would advise you to pray seriously about this. You guys talk to your pastor about this. He will be able to give you a right answer according to bible and message....

I know my pastor and his family have watched lord of the rings - He has even preached over the pulpit about the Christ analogy.
The movies such as Narnia i see along with my pastor's 5 boys.
So forgive me - but nothing in this post has stopped me and made me think that its wrong because there has been no actual fact except opinion.

JoeC

02-02-2006, 06:19 PM

6And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.

7And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt

They are controlling nature too. Does that make it positive?

Good example. So we see that they both were invoking a supernatural power - Aaron had God on his side and the magicians had, obviously, Satan.

So seeing magic in the light of invoking the supernatural (using our def. of magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic) in the adj case - def. 1), the question becomes not if magic is wrong, but which supernatural power is being invoked.

If the story is invoking God (or calling Him on the scene), then it is easily discerned to be a pure thing.

If the book lists accounts that invoke Satan, but does not glorify it (ie: the bad guys are doing it), then it is still fine (obviously we wouldn't condemn the Bible for mentioning magic in either case, so neither should we a book).

BroTrevor

02-02-2006, 06:21 PM

boom........ I'm in agreement.

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 07:09 PM

If the story is invoking God (or calling Him on the scene), then it is easily discerned to be a pure thing.

According to the bible it is not so! I am sure most of you are familiar with the story of Saul and the Witch of Endor.

1 Samuel 28

3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land....

7Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

In this story of the bible the Witch is invoking Samuel (God´s prophet!) - she is calling him on the scene! And it certainly was NOT a pure thing!:

1. Chronicles 10:
13So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it 14And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.3_ JEFF.IN COD SUNDAY_ 64-0830M
Sometimes you can go to a--a witch or a medium, and they can tell you something that's exactly right. Look at the witch of Endor. Saul... It could be exactly true; that still isn't it. They're witches. Speaking in tongues, I've seen devils speak in tongues, and write in unknown tongues. That don't mean anything. But the real thing is that Word again. Back to that Word.

JMG

02-02-2006, 07:11 PM

boom........ I'm in agreement.

I second that motion...

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 07:15 PM

GOD'S.PROVIDED.PLACE.OF.WORSHIP_ LA.CA V-18 N-2 SUNDAY_ 65-0425

Look at all the televisions and things getting these fictitious things in order. It'll come a time, I predict, that people will be completely, totally insane, the world will be. The Bible speaks of such hideous sights as they show in movies today of some prehistoric creature's age, that's lived in the earth for so many thousands and millions of years, hatch and come forth to some... That's just a minor thing, to what's going to happen. When hell is opened and the Devil comes out with all of his mysterious things, of women... or locust with hair like women, and teeth like lions. Why, the world will be completely, totally insane. It's not but just about one degree from it now.

JoeC

02-02-2006, 07:43 PM

You totally missed the point of my last post.

JoeC

02-02-2006, 07:45 PM

In this story of the bible the Witch is invoking Samuel (God´s prophet!) - she is calling him on the scene! And it certainly was NOT a pure thing!:

You are misrepresesnting the meaning of my quote. I said calling God on the scene, not one of his prophets. Yes, the witch was calling Samuel on the scene, but through the power of witchery (familiar spirits).

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 07:52 PM

You are misrepresesnting the meaning of my quote. I said calling God on the scene, not one of his prophets. Yes, the witch was calling Samuel on the scene, but through the power of witchery (familiar spirits).

Actually I don´t think I´ve missed the point. It was still God speaking through the prophet - telling Saul what was going to happen to him!

JoeC

02-02-2006, 07:56 PM

OK, well if that is so, we still have yet to determine then under which circumstances magic is wrong (using the definition of "invoking the supernatural").

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 08:09 PM

OK, well if that is so, we still have yet to determine then under which curcumstances magic is wrong (using the definition of "invoking the supernatural").

I honestly don´t get this question.

To me the question is more:

Is there any circumstance whatsoever in which magic is actually RIGHT?

JoeC

02-02-2006, 08:14 PM

YES, there would be cases where magic is acceptible. According to one of the definitions of magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic) (see adj. use, def. 1), invoking (or calling upon) a supernatural power is magic. As Christians, we do this everyday in our prayer life. I know it sounds weird, but praying is magic. :)

So now we come back to the question: Under which circumstances is magic right and under which is it wrong?

FreeAtLast

02-02-2006, 08:48 PM

YES, there would be cases where magic is acceptible. According to one of the definitions of magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic) (see adj. def. 1), invoking (or calling upon) a supernatural power is magic. As Christians, we do this everyday in our prayer life. I know it sounds weird, but praying is magic. :)

So now we come back to the question: Under which circumstances is magic right and under which is it wrong?

JoeC I honestly don´t get you.

Didn´t we just discuss that invoking (or calling upon) a supernatural power (wether it be God or the devil) THROUGH MAGIC is wrong?

The key is not only what we are invoking but THROUGH WHAT we are invoking a supernatural power!! No doubt through magic is the wrong way!

Of course as christians we are always calling upon God in prayer (through faith and not magic!) and not upon some demonic power!

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Anyways, it´s quite late overhere, so I am off to bed... :) See ya!)

JoeC

02-02-2006, 09:06 PM

You don't get me? OK, that's fine. Let me explain it a little differently, because I really want you to see what I'm saying as I believe I have a valid point.
adj.

Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural
What I am saying is magic, according to the dictionary, is any practice that relates to or invokes the supernatural. Not through magic, that would be the same as "practicing magic through magic." It's ambiguous.

Let me say it a different way:

(magic) = (invoking the supernatural)

So, to say

"Didn´t we just discuss that invoking (or calling upon) a supernatural power (wether it be God or the devil) THROUGH MAGIC is wrong?"

Is the same as saying:

"Didn´t we just discuss that invoking (or calling upon) a supernatural power (wether it be God or the devil) THROUGH INVOKING THE SUPERNATURAL is wrong?"

So we see that your statement is ambiguous.... it doesn't make sense in the context of our discussion.

To say it again: Magic, in the way that I am speaking of, is synonymous with invoking the supernatural (which could be either invoking the demonic supernatural or the holy supernatural). You just plug the phrase "invoking the supernatural" in for the word "magic." :)

Now, this again brings us back to the question:

Under which circumstances is magic (invoking the supernatural) right and under which is it wrong?

HotShot53

02-02-2006, 11:59 PM

Under which circumstances is magic (invoking the supernatural) right and under which is it wrong?

I would say it's only right if it's clear it is God they are invoking... if they are just invoking "powers" that aren't readily apparant, then I would say it's wrong. So for the books we are discussing, it is not apparant what powers the people in either LotR or HP are invoking.... for Narnia, it is commonly regarded as a Christian allagory, so without reading it or knowing it better I can't pass an opinion on it.

JoeC

02-03-2006, 12:11 AM

and such would be my opinion, HotShot.

Now here's a thought, you guys tell me what you think:

What if someone could actually film the supernatural realm? We know that Brother Branham saw it, so what if someone filmed it? Or what if someone wrote a book describing it in detail? Describing the 21 weeks of fighting between the fallen angels and Michael in the book of Daniel? What about a book that was written, unerringly mind you, describing in detail the battle when God kicked Lucifer out of heaven?

If such a film were taken or such books written, would we call it fantasy? I have no doubt the world would, because it's beyond our world. Would we call it magic? Maybe the Bride wouldn't as we relate to it differently, but the world most certainly would.

So again, just because someone says something has magic in it, doesn't automatically disqualify the book or movie. One needs to find out what kind of magic they are referring to - IMHO.

HotShot53

02-03-2006, 12:21 AM

A couple years ago I had read some books where they were describing the angel world, and the battles that take place there... I don't remember offhand what they were called, but they were pretty good.

Mick_Mack89

02-03-2006, 12:27 AM

Were they the ones by Frank Perettti?

marichino_freedom

02-03-2006, 12:58 AM

i find all of these comments interesting.....

i do enjoy reading these books, but i find that when i do (which is not often) have time to, i really find it to be truly interesting to see how other people see things. i see them as cheap entertainment and they don't sway me to want to go battle orks in middle earth or imagine myself at hogwarts....i can put it down after reading it and be done with it. now, i do know people who are unhealthyly obsessed with h.p., and thats kinda crazy. but i usually read a little here and there (h.p. and the others mentioned). but sometimes i have 3 books going at once.

hasnt anyone ever imagined anything before? i know i've tried to picture in my mind what certain things would be like before and i find it interesting to see how others see the same sorts of things.

i dont really pay attention to the magic involved with the series. i really only see the "story" in it, because, after reading 700+ pages, there really isnt all that much magic (relatively)

i'm just sort of rambling, i guess

HotShot53

02-03-2006, 01:28 AM

No, they weren't ones by Peretti...

I don't see how you can say that there isn't that much magic in them marichino.. because the whole basis of those books is built around magic... without magic there would be no storyline or book.

FreeAtLast

02-03-2006, 12:13 PM

After reading the dictionary-definition of MAGIC (quoted on here by JoeC) there shouldn´t even be a doubt about it being nothing but negative and evil.

Nevertheless after JoeC tried to find something positive or even just neutral (“invoking the supernatural”) I proved by the bible that whenever magic is involved (even if it´s invoking God – see example: Witch of Endor) it can not be good.

When the dictionary speaks about the adjective magic it is just expressing attributes of the substantive Magic. One of the features is “invoking the supernatural”. “Invoking the supernatural” is just like one of the consequences of magic, like a result (an attribute!) and can not be taken out of context of the whole definition but rather more needs to be seen in context with the rest of it.

So in this context the question is still: Through what is the supernatural being invoked?

Magic isn´t just a phrase or a synonym for “invoking the supernatural” but rather more a demonic-power – that is able to actually invoke the supernatural.

In fact we could even say: Magic is practised through Magic. Nothing ambiguous about that.

Let me put it real simple:

The power of Magic in someone brings forth magic - the supernatural works of Magic (however you want to put it).

The Holy Ghost power in someone brings forth the Holy Ghost – the supernatural works of the Holy Ghost.

And even if Magic in some cases is actually invoking God (again: see example Witch of Endor) it is still wrong to begin with.

CONCLUSION

The only proven answer by the bible is:

No matter the circumstances or what is being invoked – MAGIC IS OF THE DEVIL AND AS A CONSEQUENCE IS WRONG!

FreeAtLast

02-03-2006, 12:25 PM

JoeC didn´t you say yourself:

Again, for all contributors of this thread, please do not tout opinion statements to be fact or even good reasons without supporting them with an outside authority. In this case, the acceptable outside authorities are the Bible and the Message. Opinion statements without supporting reasons and outside authorities have no convincing power and as such do nothing but make the opinioned feel good.

So after all this discussion where are your bible and message-proven facts that sometimes Magic (or some Magic) is actually good?

Something else:

Although I have not read LOTR, I have read about those books, and I don´t think someone could seriously tell me that the magic used by all those witches and wizards in there (all the spells and all the other stuff that is going on in those books) has got anything to do with God´s power.

I do not want to hurt anyones feeling but just because some pastor might even watch those movies (LOTR) doesn´t mean that they are ok to watch.

The message of the hour doesn´t even approve of watching worldly movies in the first place – much less worldly movies that are obviously exalting demonic-power.

There is no place in the bible that speaks positive or even just neutral about Magicians, but it is always clear that they are off the Devil. If anyone wants to argue that Magicians don´t actually work through/with magic than I don´t know what they are working through and who is actually using magic.

Mick_Mack89

02-03-2006, 04:42 PM

Ummmm... Have your read all posts in here? I did give an example of where Bro. Branham used magic in a story (post 39 pg.4) If he can use magic in stories to get his point across, why can't other people?

And I'd like to point out that Bro. Branham did support a worldly movie. either Ben Hur, or the Ten commandments. And I don't think that Charleton Heston is a message believer (He was the main actor in both movies).

JoeC

02-03-2006, 05:02 PM

Good points Mick_Mack.

So, FreeAtLast, from my understanding, you would define magic as invoking the supernatural through demonic powers (correct me if I'm wrong). Okay, I'll work with that definition (even though the dictionary makes a distinction between magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic) and black magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=black%20magic) - your interpretation of magic seems to follow more closely that of "black magic").

Now first off, I am not for Lord of the Rings (or, at least not the movie, as I haven't read the book). I just don't see anyway to justify the obvious use of of sorcery (def. the belief in magical spells that harness occult forces or evil spirits to produce unnatural effects in the world).

The literary work that I am championing is the Chronicles of Narnia. Others are welcome to champion Lord of the Rings or even Harry Potter - but I won't because my own reason goes against it.

So, let's zero in of the Chronicles of Naria. I haven't seen it in a long time, but I don't remember it using demonic powers through witches, warlords, and wizards like Lord of the Rings did. Nor do I remember any cases where it glorified any sort of demonic use of the supernatural. Neither do I remember any instances of magic (aka black magic) being depicted in a good light (unless you call Aslan healing people magic).

It should be brought out that The Chronicles of Narnia was not considered an allegorical work by C.S. Lewis. He did, in fact, consider it an alternative historical work - answering the hypothetical question "What might Christ become like, if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?"

If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair [a character in The Pilgrim's Progress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim%27s_Progress)] represents despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like, if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?' This is not allegory at all." (Martindale & Root 1990 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Narnia#CITEREFMartindaleRoot1990 ))

So we see that Lewis fused fantasy with Christianity to create an entertaining children's book. How is that worse than, say Cinderella? I would propose that it's even better than the typical children's fairy tale because it has meaning behind it and uses the imagination to portray Christianity.

SpamBoy

02-03-2006, 05:35 PM

I have an observation about what is magic and what is faith.

BACKGROUND : Moses and Aaron before Pharoh

Aaron cast rod - becomes serpent by the Word of the Lord
Magicians of Egypt cast rod - becomes serpent by _______? (what means)

the Message paraphraised :
"The Devil can impersonate every gift."
"The Devil can not create."

So...how did the rods of the Magicians become morphed into serpants?

------------------
OBSERVATION :
1. There are two different groups excersising a power outside themselves.
2. Faith is a type of mantra.
------------------
~~ me ~~
hp -- just plain evil ( you can also refer to bro barry's comments ) http://blog.larrymoore.org/images/nunchaku-507.gif
lotr -- a grand mental picture of the enemy and the great battle we face in our minds on a daily basis. Gandalf talks much like King David did about his eneimes. lotr sprung from Tolkien's relationship with his wife, nothing Christian about it. (I think the Orcs in the movie were made out of spam. -- yes I have seen ALL THREE movies...my flesh is weak. :mad: )
narnia -- unatrual beast -- images used from other magic books including Dungeons and Dragons.

....maybe more to come.

-SpamBoy
"lotr == Lord of the Righteous. http://blog.larrymoore.org/images/laugh-508.gif"

Unregistered

02-04-2006, 07:33 AM

2nd Corinthians 6:14-18 says:
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

Bro Branham said in the message "Why" that people always want to quench their thirst for God with worldy things instead of going to Him. He spoke about smoking, drinking and worldy activities to have fun and that means also movies and such worldy books. As you can see in 2nd Corinthians, the Lord told us to be separated from the world. If you're a true Christian you should be different than the world and the whole world is watching those movies and reading those books. And God told us to not do the things that they're doing, so how can those books be from God? If it really would be from God noone would want to read them, just like none of them reads the Bible or listens to the Message.

I received the HOly Ghost and from that time on I never watched those things again.

I think it's pretty sad that so many ppl in here are even encouraging people to read those books and watch those movies. Never start with such stuff, it's right out from hell to deceive the ppl.

Elleke

02-04-2006, 10:53 AM

Does somebody already talked to his pastor about this ?
I would like to hear their opinion ....

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 11:31 AM

And I'd like to point out that Bro. Branham did support a worldly movie. either Ben Hur, or the Ten commandments. And I don't think that Charleton Heston is a message believer (He was the main actor in both movies).

That´s a very weak argument! Bro. Branham didnt think that those 2 movies were worldly. Don´t even try to compare them with Harry Potter or LOTR!!!

THE.REPROACH.FOR.THE.CAUSE.OF.THE.WORD_ JEFF.IN V-2 N-16 SUNDAY_ 62-1223
Yes, sir, It's all moved right up to us, brother and sister. Why is it? In the last few years never has the movie world ever done what it's done. On the screen comes the story of "The Ten Commandments" by Cecil De Mille. On the screen come the life of Jesus Christ through " Ben Hur ." On the screen comes "The Big Fisherman," the conversion of Peter. And all these religious plays which the movies has refused, and dirtied, and throwed away. But God in His mighty power blasted forth just the same.

REVELATION.CHAPTER.FOUR.1_ JEFF.IN ROJC 551-584 SATURDAY_ 60-1231
135 Sometime ago a bunch of ministers, Oral Roberts was one of them. Cecil B. DeMille, when he wrote this Ten Commandments , he called up Brother Shakarian, Brother Roberts, many preachers across the land, any preacher could come, and he invited them to come into the studio before the picture was ever released, and let them see the rehearsal of it before it was ever showed out, when they was charging twenty-five dollars a ticket. But he... They seen the rehearsal of it, that they might pass their opinion on whether there was any critics about it or what could be said, and so forth. They seen it before the public seen it.

THE.THIRD.EXODUS_ JEFF.IN V-2 N-21 SUNDAY_ 63-0630M
225 Did you see Cecil DeMille's Ten Commandments ? I guess many of you did. I don't believe in going to picture shows, all this stuff. But I recommended to the church, that anybody, if they didn't have nothing but that, that wanted to see it, it would be all right if they want to see it. Because, I would not let... First, some of my brethren went. They come, telling me. I hadn't been around one for many years. Finally, I went down here, when it was at this drive-in. I looked at it. I seen what it was. Then I said to the church, "If you want to go see that, it's all right." There it was. It was lovely, beautiful.

THE.HANDWRITING.ON.THE.WALL_ JEFF.IN SUNDAY_ 56-0902
E-48 Look at it. Look in the dirt; look at the filth. Look what it's done. Look at the stripteases, look at everything else on the radio, a not on the radio, but on the television. You put in the movies , and you try to keep your kids away from the movies . You holiness people, you good people, you people that's tried to preach the truth, you people that's tried to stand by it. And the devil is trying to get one jump ahead. You know what he done? He put it right in your house in the name of television. Yes, sir.

AS.THE.EAGLE.STIRRETH.UP.HER.NEST_ YAKIMA.WA THURSDAY_ 60-0804
Brother, when this old heart gets right with God there, and that eagle spirit begins to move up, you climb above those things of the world. The trouble of it is, we're not attending prayer meeting, attending church, and doing what's right. We're staying home to see some movie play or something like that on our televisions, uncensored programs, some of them dirty jokes and things, they're cracking. And that's the wrong thing to put before a--a young--our young generation of people. The... Used to be it was wrong for the people, holiness people, to go to movies . The devil pull one on them; he put them right in the house. That's exactly right. Oh, it's too bad.

INFLUENCE_ NY.NY V-18 N-9 THURSDAY_ 63-1114
50 And then we find other things. It used to be it was wrong for the holiness people to attend bioscopes or movies , you know. Now they go all the time. See? And then Satan pulled a fast one on you, put the television right in your house, and, see, fixed it in there. But all these things, that it used to be wrong.
51 Well, what is it? See, it comes in so gradual until, the first thing you know, it's just got you. It's like a vine growing around you.

There are many more quotes about movies and the like.

I am very honest with you.
Overhere we are also just humans - young ppl, who also are struggling with the things of this world. We might even watch the same movies like you. But at least we are not fooling ourselves by saying that it is ok to watch them. We know it is wrong and admit it. That´s the only way God can help us to get away from them. If we think that there is nothing wrong with partaking things of the world then He is never able to deliver us from them.
We need more of the Holy Ghost. I believe the Holy Ghost in us will keep us from doing so!

JoeC

02-04-2006, 11:37 AM

That´s a very weak argument! Bro. Branham didnt think that those 2 movies were worldly. Don´t even try to compare them with Harry Potter or LOTR!!!

I noticed you didn't mention Narnia, does this mean you are reconsidering it?:think:

In any case, I would like to hear a response to my post.

Overhere we are also just humans - young ppl, who also are struggling with the things of this world.

Where are you from, FreeAtLast? I'd be interested to know.

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 11:41 AM

...And I don't think that Charleton Heston is a message believer (He was the main actor in both movies).

Even if the main actor in Harry Potter was a message-believer (or even a message-pastor!) wouldn´t make the movie right!!! It doesn´t matter what ppl think, say or do - it´s what the Word of God tells us!

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 11:42 AM

Hi JoeC.
I am from Germany.
I will reply to your post. I am still working on it :thumbup:

Mick_Mack89

02-04-2006, 12:43 PM

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 01:45 PM

So, FreeAtLast, from my understanding, you would define magic as invoking the supernatural through demonic powers (correct me if I'm wrong). Okay, I'll work with that definition (even though the dictionary makes a distinction between magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic) and black magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=black%20magic) - your interpretation of magic seems to follow more closely that of "black magic").

The dictionary-definition we were referring to was not the one of black magic, but rather more the generic term of MAGIC (wether it be black or white magic)! Besides this: Please explain: What actually is the distinction? Was there anything positive in the definition you gave?

As I tried to explain before, I don´t believe that there is such a thing as “good” Magic and “bad” Magic. Magic can never be good – may it be white or black magic – the power behind it is Satan´s power and nothing else. I gave the example before of Simon the sorcerer – he must have done some “good” Magic, otherwise the ppl wouldn´t have thought that he was the great power of God.

I do not care how good something looks and how many parallels it´s got to the bible - as long as magic is the main theme of it God can not aprove of it.

Like somebody said before: A christian rock song has got a good - even very scriptural and more clearer message in it than the books of Narnia (because in there everything is more subtled, even if its supposed to be a parallel to the bible) – still the way the message is being delivered through is TOTALLY wrong to begin with and thus not acceptable in God´s eyes.

So, let's zero in of the Chronicles of Naria. I haven't seen it in a long time, but I don't remember it using demonic powers through witches, warlords, and wizards like Lord of the Rings did. Nor do I remember any cases where it glorified any sort of demonic use of the supernatural. Neither do I remember any instances of magic (aka black magic) being depicted in a good light (unless you call Aslan healing people magic).

As said before – I have not read NARNIA (and I have NO intention of whatsoever to read it) but just the title of the first book “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe” tells me that this book is also about demonic power through Witches. And going through a Wardrobe can certainly not be spiritualized. Please explain, what has that got to do with the power of God? Actually its quite common for demons to practize those things. Just because NARNIA is a little more subtled (please notice: the emphasis is on “a little” – because in there is plain MAGIC all over the place) doesn´t mean it is any better than LOTR. The use of MAGIC (may it be for the “good side” or the “bad side” ) can not be tolerated.

WIKIPEDIA:
The Chronicles of Narnia is a series of seven fantasy novels for children written by C.S. Lewis. It is considered a classic of children's literature and is perhaps the author's best known work. More than 95 million copies of the books have been sold in 41 languages. Written by Lewis between 1950 and 1956, The Chronicles of Narnia contains Christian themes and borrows from Greek and Roman mythology as well as traditional English and Irish fairy tales.

The Chronicles present the adventures of children who play central roles in the unfolding history of the realm of Narnia, a place where animals talk, magic is common, and good is fighting evil.

This should be enough to put off any christian to read those books in the first place!!!

Christian themes mingled with greek and roman mythology is MORE DANGEROUS than plain evil stories like Harry Potter. Just because something has got some biblicial things in it (or even loads of biblicial things!) doesnt make it right – in fact its rather more likely to be the opposite! Satan himself quoted scripture to Jesus!

The bible even speaks of false apostles that are transforming into the apostles of Christ and that satan himself is transformed into an angel of light!

Just because something looks good doesn´t mean that it is good!

Here is a quote of Bro. Branham where he speaks of an experience St. Martin had:

THE.ANOINTED.ONES.AT.THE.END.TIME_ JEFF.IN V-5 N-3 SUNDAY_ 65-0725M
I want to show you how deceiving the Devil is. One day he was setting in his study. Up come a mighty angel, crown on his head, golden shoes on, lace around his garments of gold, and said, "Martin, do you know me?" He said, "I am your Lord and Saviour. I'm the One that saved you. Worship me, Martin." But that prophet, knowing there was a little something strange there, he kept looking at him. He said, "Martin, I am your Saviour, Jesus Christ. Worship me! Don't you know me, Martin?" Martin kept looking at him, the Scripture running through his mind. He said, "Satan, get away from me." He said, "You got a crown on your head. And the Word of God says His 'saints will crown Him' at the end of the age." Wouldn't that a-been Pentecostal bait? Watch that Word, brother. That's where it pays.

No matter how good and right something looks, if its not exactly according to the Word of God we should leave it alone! Doesn´t the bible say that is so very close it would deceive the very elect if possible!

Mick_Mack89

02-04-2006, 02:06 PM

(Hey Free At Last! My dad's (with my mom and sister) going to Germany in the fall. There's some youth camp going on out there, and as of right now he's going to be speaking at the services. I'd go but I'd have to pay for it myself, and going over isn't cheap.)

Free At Last, why haven't you addresed the meat of my earlier argument? The part where Bro. Branham used magic in a story.

Also I have to point out that I don't consider The Chronicles of Narnia to be any "worldlier" (I'm speaking of the books solely now) than either Ben Hur or The Ten commandments. I do not think I can stand by LOTR series anymore however.

Free At Last, I'm just going to assume that you were typing your response when I last posted. Could you please respond to it as I believe I have made a valid point.

As for your last post your judging a book by it's cover. You've made the book out to be something it isn't.
"Hmm... Okay, since you haven't read them I tell you something you probably haven't realized. In the Chronicles, there are two forces at work, good and evil. However only Asland (the Christ figure) and the witch (Devil figure) are capable of creating magic. That is not to say that "gifts" are not used by the "normal" people which are bestowed upon them by either Asland or the Devil figure. I cannot say with surety (haven't read the books in a long time) but I don't believe any incanatation like things were said by anyone. So if what I have just stated above is true, and if the series is really a parable refering to the christian life (which I believe without a doubt it is, the themes aren't just possibly related to christianity, they are related), then I can't see any problem with the books from your stated thesis. In our christian walk today we are given the gifts to use to fight the enemy, increase our faith, etc. In the Chronicles the protagonists are also given "magic" gifts to use. They aren't wondering around spouting spells and the like." (post 50, pg.5)

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 02:22 PM

(Hey Free At Last! My dad's (with my mom and sister) going to Germany in the fall. There's some youth camp going on out there, and as of right now he's going to be speaking at the services. I'd go but I'd have to pay for it myself, and going over isn't cheap.

Hi Mick_Mack89. So you are Bro. Mc Fadden´s son! Nice to meet you :thumbup:
By the way my uncle is hosting the youth-camp in August. (Although I don´t think I will be going - kinda too old for those things. haha)

Free At Last, why haven't you addresed the meat of my earlier argument? The part where Bro. Branham used magic in a story.

If I am not mistaken this was the only time Bro. Branham used a story that had a magic aspect in it to illustrate something.

All the other times (and that was very often!) he spoke very strong against magic.

Bro. Branham was by no means defining magic down in his preaching. It was beyond all question to him that magic is the devil. Yes, it wasn´t even an issue to be discussed in the first place.

THE.UNCERTAIN.SOUND_ SPOKANE.WA SATURDAY_ 62-0714
And anybody knows that fortunetelling is a devil. Sure it is. Any of that seance, and black magic, and stuff, is the devil. Sure it is. It's the devil trying to impersonate Christ. Because there is a devil, that shows there is a Christ.

Also I have to point out that I don't consider The Chronicles of Narnia to be any "worldlier" (I'm speaking of the books solely now) than either Ben Hur or The Ten commandments.

The Ten commandments tells us the story of Moses and the children of Israel and about Ben Hur Bro. Branham said: “On the screen come the life of Jesus Christ through Ben Hur.” Nothing subtled about that – just the plain gospel without Magic but the power of God doing the miracles in those movies!

Mick_Mack89 can you please explain to me: What is worldly in your eyes?

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 02:26 PM

Free At Last, I'm just going to assume that you were typing your response when I last posted. Could you please respond to it as I believe I have made a valid point.)

Sorry, yeah I was. Just posted my reply now!

As for your last post your judging a book by it's cover. You've made the book out to be something it isn't.

As I said before - I have read about those books! Please read my explanation to JoeC why I don´t even agree with NARNIA. Narnia is all about Magic! Magic is the MAIN THEME in those books.

JoeC

02-04-2006, 02:41 PM

You say that all magic is wrong - without any distinctions being made whatsoever. Oviously, Brother Branham didn't see it this way. On one hand we see him illustrating a point with a fairy tale that includes magic and on the other, we see him speaking out against it, as in the quote you gave below.

THE.UNCERTAIN.SOUND_ SPOKANE.WA SATURDAY_ 62-0714
And anybody knows that fortunetelling is a devil. Sure it is. Any of that seance, and black magic, and stuff, is the devil. Sure it is. It's the devil trying to impersonate Christ. Because there is a devil, that shows there is a Christ.
After reading this quote, It would seem that he blatantly contradicts his beliefs about magic by using magic in a fairy tale to illustrate a point. It would seem that he is being caught in an inconsistency... unless he made a distinction (I say that he did). Also notice, when speaking against magic in the quote above, he specifically used the term "black" magic. http://www.yqnews.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Now, if you would have read the definitions on the two terms that I linked to in my post two pevious, you would see the difference between magic and black magic (please go check it out) - and I never said there is anything such as white magic as that has a totally different connotation than the point I am trying to make (one begins to think of white wizards and the like :rolleyes: ).

Now, concerning magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic) and black magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=black%20magic), one specifically relates to demonic practices, while the other could be construed as invoking the supernatural (which could be good or bad). To illustrate: Many people in the world would declare some of the things that are mentioned in the Bible to be magic if they ever saw it happening (Red Sea parting, storms brought under control, bread appearing from heaven, an ax floating in the water, etc...). So when talking about magic in something like Chronicles of Narnia, it becomes neccessary to the discussion to hammer down the nature of the magic that is present in the book.

Question: Do you see anything wrong with fantasy as a genre without magical elements (say, stories with talking animals)?

Another question, what do you think about children's stories like Cinderella? What about Little Red Riding Hood? Also, how would you feel about a movie/documentary that exposed the evils of seances and other witchcraft? Please be specific and address these questions seperately as they all have different factors.

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 04:33 PM

I read the definition of black magic and of magic. I would like to quote the whole definition of "just" magic again on here:

magic
n.
1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

2.
a. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
b. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.

4. A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm).

adj.
1. Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: “stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time” (John Milton).
2. Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects.

How can anyone relate this to God´s power in any way? This is just magic (not black magic)! There is NO positive aspect to it whatsoever. As I said before: MAGIC is the generic term for every magic - wether it be white magic or black magic. Even if you didn´t know that but there is white magic too. Here is the definition of it:

white magic
n.
Magic or incantation practiced for good purposes or as a counter to evil.

It´s still the devil doing those things - even if they are "positive".

JoeC. you are making it yourself too simple. Indirectly you are saying that only when Bro. Branham said BLACK Magic than that magic was of the devil.

What about this quote:

LOOKING.TO.THE.UNSEEN_ CLEVELAND.OH WEDNESDAY_ 50-0816
E-15 Moses, upon his signs... He went and performed them one time before Israel, and they went a forty year journey following him. Is that right? Yes, sir. Performed it one time... Healed his hand of leprosy, made stick--cane he had, walking stick become a serpent, and back to a stick. They believed. And when there was a lot of magic , impersonations done in that day... Jambres and Jannes withstood Moses. But God seen that His power always predominated and went over it. You see? Always. They have a lot of true and false in this day. That's true. And the false will always want to say theirs is true.

This is "just" magic. According to your argument this magic must be good, because Bro. Branham never said black magic in this context. Also: the bible doesn´t speak of black magicians - simply magicians.

Anyways, even if you are saying that there are 2 types of magic (one is good and one is evil) then according to your own conviction you still should not read Narnia - because in there there is also very much emphasis on the power of the Witch (and her co-helpers).

Now, concerning magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic) and black magic (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=black%20magic), one specifically relates to demonic practices, while the other could be construed as invoking the supernatural (which could be good or bad) - which, btw, many people in the world would declare some of the things that are mentioned in the Bible to be magic if they ever saw it happening (Red Sea parting, storms brought under control, bread appearing from heaven, etc...).

The argument: "Many people in the world would declare some of the things that are mentioned in the Bible to be magic if they ever saw it happening" is very weak!

They also called Jesus "Beelzebub" when he actually did those things!! And they said it was "Telepathy" when Bro. Branham was under discernment!! They may call it whatever they want - it is still the power of God!!!

Another question, do you see anything wrong with fantasy as a genre without magical elements (say, stories with talking animals)?

I personally don´t like them, but they are more like fairy-tales to me. I don´t really have an opinion about them. I wouldn´t compare them though to magic-books, as I said - more to fairy-tales.

Another question, what do you think about children's stories like Cinderella? What about Little Red Riding Hood?

I don´t know.I don´t think they are too bad. Because the main theme and emphasis in those 2 stories is not magic (at least in the german versions that I know). I don´t even remember any magic going on in Little Red Riding Hood.

Now when it comes to "The wizard of Oz" I definitely wouldn´t want my children (if I had some. lol) to read or watch those kind of things. (Of course I also don´t read/watch that). To me that´s all about magic again - not just a "little touch" of it. The main theme is Magic!

So, it isn´t always that easy where to draw the line.
But for me: When the main emphasis and theme in any book is MAGIC I sure want to keep good distance from those things!

Also, how would you feel about a movie/documentary that exposed the evils of seances and other witchcraft

you also said somewhere else:

What if someone could actually film the supernatural realm? We know that Brother Branham saw it, so what if someone filmed it? Or what if someone wrote a book describing it in detail? Describing the 21 weeks of fighting between the fallen angels and Michael in the book of Daniel? What about a book that was written, unerringly mind you, describing in detail the battle when God kicked Lucifer out of heaven?

If it was done in a very clear, unerringly and not ambiguous and subtled way – just calling things by the real name - I wouldn´t have a problem with it.

Elleke

02-04-2006, 04:43 PM

Guest,
I agree with everything you wrote.
This is the same experience I had.
The Holy Ghost took away the desire to read all kind of books. (I was what you call "a bookworm" - it started already as a young kid at the age of 6)
I don`t need that anymore.
In this time, it is so important to have the Holy Ghost.
He truely leads us through everything.

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 04:48 PM

Ummmm... Have your read all posts in here? I did give an example of where Bro. Branham used magic in a story (post 39 pg.4) If he can use magic in stories to get his point across, why can't other people?

Just another thought about this:

Bro. Branham didnt just tell a story that had magic in it just to tell a nice story but he actually EXPLAINED his point afterwards in a very clear way!!!

Those magic books we are talking about (NARNIA) are not explaining the meaning of the context afterwards. They are ambiguous. They are giving an uncertain sound!

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 04:55 PM

Mick_Mack89:

Realizing that your dad is a pastor, what is his opinion on this subject? Can you please ask him?

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 05:02 PM

SpamBoy

02-04-2006, 05:16 PM

FreeAtLast, you stole my words. http://thehorde.orphebus.com/Smileys/default/angry.gif :thumbup:

Forgive my post if it's ot...it's hard to read thru all the posts to get a sense of the flow. I have read the last two pages and would express myself as follows :

I looked at the definitions that Josiah provided, both types of magic are... magic. Wether they are used for good or evil.
One point about majicians -- Bro Branham said they used "faith".
Now, that's just pure faith, friends. Magicians use it many times
to play pranks and so forth, burst glasses and things. It will, if you
believe.

Any contact into the supernatural or changing the natural relm is invoking an outside force to allow you todo such.
If that force is evil -- then it's wrong.
If that force is good (the LORD) -- this it's right.

I think you all are taking this "debat" too far. It's quite simple. We as Believers stay away from *anything* that would hint of the Devil. Right?

If there is a question in your mind, get away from it.
You cannot walk by faith with a question mark in your mind.

You say that all magic is wrong - without any distinctions being made whatsoever. Oviously, Brother Branham didn't see it this way. On one hand we see him illustrating a point with a fairy tale that includes magic and on the other, we see him speaking out against it, as in the quote you gave below.

...a magic flower. a flower that talks. a childhood memory of a book.
and by thus we say Bro Branham condoned magic? I can't believe what I'm ready... http://thehorde.orphebus.com/Smileys/default/undecided.gif

After reading this quote, It would seem that he blatantly contradicts his beliefs about magic by using magic in a fairy tale to illustrate a point. It would seem that he is being caught in an inconsistency... unless he made a distinction (I say that he did). Also notice, when speaking against magic in the quote above, he specifically used the term "black" magic.

I would be careful using the terms "blatantly contradicts", "being caught in an inconsistency" and Bro Branham in the same sentance. http://thehorde.orphebus.com/Smileys/default/no.gif

"he specifically used the term "black" magic." --> YOU forgot to include "stuff".
Any of that seance, and black magic, and stuff, is the devil.

stuff would include everything about magic imho.

-SpamBoy
"...by this they will know you are my disciples."

JoeC

02-04-2006, 05:16 PM

Indirectly you are saying that only when Bro. Branham said BLACK Magic than that magic was of the devil."

Nope. You are wrong. I am merely bringing out that Brother Branham made distinctions between the nature of one magic and another - and I said as much.

I don´t know.I don´t think they are too bad. Because the main theme and emphasis in [Cinderalla & Little Red Riging Hood] is not magic (at least in the german versions that I know). I don´t even remember any magic going on in Little Red Riding Hood.

Now when it comes to "The wizard of Oz" I definitely wouldn´t want my children (if I had some. lol) to read or watch those kind of things. (Of course I also don´t read/watch that). To me that´s all about magic again - not just a "little touch" of it. The main theme is Magic!

So, it isn´t always that easy where to draw the line.
But for me: When the main emphasis and theme in any book is MAGIC I sure want to keep good distance from those things!

All along you have contested that ALL magic is wrong - but now you fall back on my original treatise on when magic is not appropriate (quoted below for conveinence).

When magic is not taking being used as a tool, but rather it is the main element, the center of the story.
When the magic being used AND glorified is the sort that would fall into the following: incantations/seance/spells/wand waving/cursing/hexing
Well, I'm glad we are on even ground now, and it has taken long enough to get here. Now the discussion would be "Is magic the central theme in Chronicles of Narnia?"

The argument: "Many people in the world would declare some of the things that are mentioned in the Bible to be magic if they ever saw it happening" is very weak!

It wasn't an arguement - it was an illustration. I was trying to illustrate that different people consider magic to be many different things. It is neccessary to determine what kind (nature) of magic is really being used here.

Yes, there is magic. But what is the motive behind it? Is the motive of the book to portray the occult or is the motive to portray Christ? Like a documentary about the evils of seances, just because the book has demonic elements in it doesn't make it wrong. It becomes wrong when the book glorifies that. But it doesn't. It casts it as being wrong & evil.

Now in response to my question about fantasy as a genre, you had this to say:

I personally don´t like them, but they are more like fairy-tales to me. I don´t really have an opinion about them. I wouldn´t compare them though to magic-books, as I said - more to fairy-tales.

Now, let me cast Narnia in this light:

Taking out Aslan (the Christ character) & the Witch (the Satan character), Narnia has no magic in it. This is true. It is then just a fantasy world. According to your quote above there is no problem with it yet.

Now, C.S. Lewis took this world and answered the question "What would it be like if there were a world like this and Christ decided to come down and manifest himself in a corporal body as he did for us is our world?"

Now, given that the acts of God in our world is not wrong and given that this fantastical world was okay before we inserted a Christ figure or a Satan figure into into, then there should be no problem with expressing the acts of God in this fantastical world.

blessed

02-04-2006, 05:24 PM

I have been reading this thread and i am a bit concerned, there is a difference between reading the definition of magic and actually experiencing it whilst one may consider the act of a miracle as magic which it is but it was done by God, and it stood true to his word.....now i have not looked at NARNIA and that is based on my personal walk with the Lord and my experiences..but i would think that if the magic is not pointing you directly to Christ ( please look at it from an unbeliever point of view ) then it's worth a second look. I can see here from your knowledge you may think of the good one as representing christ but would an unbeliever think the same...remember who lucifer was, what he can do..it is my personal opinion ( and this is not open for debate) that those things are a trap from the enemy.....if it does not point to Christ then who is getting the glory...remember for this age all those demons from the river euphrates ( hope i spelt it correctly) is loose...

How many of you remember the movie xfiles, whilst it may seem to one as just pure fiction and nothing real i personally know of a young woman who whilst watching that movie got posessed by a demon..that was a real eye opener for me...i know of people who practise good magic in my country but will deny that God sent a prophet..we know that anything outside of this message will God will not honour....magic/miracles done by Jesus i will accept anything else is just satan trying to get some attention.

These are just my opinion. If a you believe otherwise then that is your opinion i don't agree with trying to convince all4jesus to look at the movie or read certain books..have you all thought that it might hinder her spiritual walk by opening up herself to these things we are all on different points in the race always remember that...

Lord Bless

SpamBoy

02-04-2006, 05:28 PM

Now, let me cast Narnia in this light:

Taking out Aslan (the Christ character) & the Witch (the Satan character), Narnia has no magic in it. This is true. It is then just a fantasy world. According to your quote above there is no problem with it yet.

Josiah -- have you read the entire series?
"Narnia has no magic in it." -- healing potions, arrorws of true flight, songs of sleep spells, fire magic, magical travel, deep magic.... :think:

JoeC

02-04-2006, 05:38 PM

From my understanding, it is either Aslan or the Witch that powers these things. Take them out and you take out the magic.

No I have not read the books. Perhaps we should get Blood Washed Bride in here - she has read the whole series and watched the most recent movie.

JoeC

02-04-2006, 06:01 PM

Anyhow, I've had fun and I've made my opinion clear. If in doing so, I have offended anyone, I most humbly apologize. I am bowing out of the discussion as I really can't see it leading to anything else than discord.

Again, I've enjoyed reasoning with you all - it's been fun. My opinion still stands as my opinion alone. If you veer to the left or the right of that, no hard feelings.

As a Christian, I want to be right. Right now, I'm not convicted about reading Narnia or watching the movie. I trust that those of you who disagree with me will pray for me in Christian love that if I am wrong, God would show me. For indeed, no man can open the blinded eyes - if my eyes are blind to this then only God will do the opening.

For those of you still wondering about these books, take Brother Branham's advice: If there's a question about it, don't do it. It has never been my intention to convince someone to read these books if they don't feel right about them... only that one shouldn't be too quick to judge others based on their own personal convictions

God bless you all.

- Josiah Cornett

BroTrevor

02-04-2006, 06:25 PM

As a Christian, I want to be right. Right now, I'm not convicted about reading Narnia or watching the movie. I trust that those of you who disagree with me will pray for me in Christian love that if I am wrong, God would show me. For indeed, no man can open the blinded eyes - if my eyes are blind to this then only God will do the opening.

Not to be a follower here, but I'm kinda in the same boat. Hope everyone still loves me, as this conversation hasn't swayed my love for any other believers.

I don't think I'd sit through any LOTR or Harry Potter anymore...not necessarily as a result of this conversation, although I must say, this conversation has reinforced this conviction. As for Narnia, I really enjoyed the books, and even the movie. I thought it was so decidedly Christian. I still don't see the connection Spamy or FreeAtLast make to the fantasy in the story, although I appreciate their candor and honesty.

-Trevor

Mick_Mack89

02-04-2006, 07:21 PM

Mick_Mack89:

Realizing that your dad is a pastor, what is his opinion on this subject? Can you please ask him?

It's a valid question, and I asked him what he thought about all of this. I explained to him there was a debate about magic going on this forum and that we were talking about three books: Harry Potter, LOTR, and The Chronicles of Narnia. I asked his personal opinion on each of them.

My dad said that he has not read any of these books, but we should consider each of the author’s personal beliefs. He did point out that the author, C.S. Lewis, was supposed to be a Christian and from some of the things he did read, he thought that Lewis had some “insight” into the Christian walk.

FreeAtLast

02-04-2006, 07:44 PM

All along you have contested that ALL magic is wrong - but now you fall back on my original treatise on when magic is not appropriate (quoted below for conveinence).

[/list]Well, I'm glad we are on even ground now, and it has taken long enough to get here. Now the discussion would be "Is magic the central theme in Chronicles of Narnia?"

I am sorry. In this we are not on even ground.

I still stand for: ALL magic is wrong!

Even the little magic in the Cinderella-story. The reason why I said that I could live with it is simply because I don´t think that there is very much emphasis put on the magic in that children´s story. What I mean is: it´s not the main thing (and I am just about able to overlook that). Yet, nevertheless - even that little bit of magic in there is still wrong!!

As blessed said:

magic/miracles done by Jesus i will accept anything else is just satan trying to get some attention.

Anyways, I must truthfully say, that I can´t say that I had fun discussing all this. The reason why I actually argued so strong and long about it is because I still see a great danger in it and I was very much concerned and even shocked for I agree with blessed where she said that in her personal opinion those things are a trap from the enemy...

But as you said: "For indeed, no man can open the blinded eyes - if my eyes are blind to this then only God will do the opening."

Strange enough I just happen to listen to a song that says the very same before I came on here and I was praying: Open the eyes Lord! And I don´t mean through me, but through the Holy Ghost!

I am praying for you all.
Please pray for me too. No doubt there might be other areas where my eyes are not open to something.

We are all depending on God.
I am not one bit better than anyone of you on here - just a sinner saved by grace.

God bless you all and may He draw us all closer to Him.

Mick_Mack89

02-04-2006, 07:57 PM

I can see this thread has winded down. I wanted to say more, but... what could I say to you guy's that would convince you to my point of view? Probably nothing. Anyways, its been an interesting conversation, and it has helped me.

JoeC

02-04-2006, 11:36 PM

I do want to say that I was wrong in simply defining magic as "invoking the supernatural." I was using the adjective case definition when we were really speaking of magic as a noun.

So no, prayer isn't magic in itself - though one could say "it was a magic prayer" in the same way that one might say that it was a "effective prayer." That is, God heard it and acted (it called God on the scene). But that is only in the descriptive sense and probably wouldn't be used because of the connotation it carries. Anyhow, sorry for the misunderstanding, I should have looked at it more closely. :(

AlanaH

08-23-2006, 03:35 PM

Once again, here's my two cents on the matter...
I was on the Internet checking out some of the reviews of the Chronicles of Narnia movie when it first came out. So many people likened their experience of watching it as being 'wonderfully similiar to watching Harry Potter movies and the Lord of the Rings movies'.
Now I have never seen a Harry Potter movie or read any of the Harry Potter books, but unfortunately, I have seen a little clip of one of the Lord of the Rings movies. It is purely demonic. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I don't see why anyone has to watch this just to say that they have seen a 'really good right-versus-wrong movie'. I know of so many believers who have been caught in this web and it is just plain not good.
Something else that maybe could be food for thought: A friend of mine said he was also checking this point out and found that Tolkien was a Catholic and actually friends with C.S. Lewis. Apparently, Tolkien wanted to make a bet with Lewis on whose books would catch on the quickest, saying that they were so alike and everything, who's gonna do better type thing.
Now I do not know just how accurate this info is, I am simply taking my friend's word for it, but hey, I still think that even if the Narnia books were good, now that Hollywood has gotten a hold on it, it might be time to let it go, even if only for a season.
Seriously though, if witchcraft or magic in any form is what the world is crazy about, whatever the world does, do the opposite. Witchcraft and magic is completely invading the books and the movies out there, so I believe that we should avoid it at all costs, even if it does appear to be only the "innocent kind".