Holding hands while Courting/Dating

[God'schild]

Heres something to ponder on what do you all think about holding hands while your Courting/Dating.

Some messages churches it is okay to hold hands while your courting/dating some you can't untill your engaged... I know the girl that my brother is dating in her church you can hold hands when your courting/dating and even sit together in church..

what are your thoughts on this..

Quotes from what Brother Branham says about it would be nice..

but in general what are your thoughts on this issue???

[Only One Life, Live 4 GOD]

sitting together in church is fine but my sis never held hands until they were engaged bar once

[HotShot53]

girls are stimulated by touch as much as guys are by sight... would you say a girl should start dressing sexier for a guy before they get married? In my opinion, I don't think hand-holding should even really be done before marriage... though that may be a bit strong.... but I would definately recomend pretty strongly against it before engagement at the least

[Only One Life, Live 4 GOD]

Whoa you think we cant control ourselves??? What type of girls do you hang round!!!! Sheesh its the guys who cant keep their hands to themselves and all they need is a nice STRONG slap I know from Experiance not that IU've ever held hands with a guy but I do know guys have wandering hands.
And anyway a girl shoudnt wear tight tops or skirts... seethrough etc... and yes they would dress sexier for the husband its a special thing. I know my sis spent about $2000 on nightwear and underwear before she got married not that you should want to know that.

[joris]

Whoa you think we cant control ourselves??? What type of girls do you hang round!!!!:surrender
erm, if I get it right the main point of the topic is that hands holding may be causing emotions, especially for the girl; You seem to respond offensive; if you're infatuated, and emotions get stimulated, then, yes, it may easily get harder to control

Us guys have something similar with seeing, as was said before, seeing woman's shapes better may easily cause trouble (at least in thinking), but it's not really the best comparison as, for us it's lust, and I think for girls the hand holding emotions is not lust.

[marichino_freedom]

it isnt that we cant control ourselves (i dont think he was saying that)....its just "tempting" the devil....because girls dont react as much (usually) to sight as much as they do to touch (dont get me wrong, guys respond to that too), and it was explained to me that just simply holding someones hand can progressively lead to things more and more "involved" (its like justifying "well, if we can do holding hands, then why can't we do THIS (or that or whatever)".....and so on

as i was taught in (my very catholic) junior high "leave room for the Holy Spirit and the 12 apostles"

[joris]

as i was taught in (my very catholic) junior high "leave room for the Holy Spirit and the 12 apostles"that'd mean don't sit next to each others, keep 12 chairs empty :D ;)

[marichino_freedom]

pretty much :)

[jtucker]

well i don't think you need to go to that much of an extreme but definitly keep an appropiate amount of space between the two people

[SisTrev]

this is what my dad told me about holding hands...it may seem harmless enough, but when 2 people are holding hands, the hands usually brush against the leg. That then leads to "feelings" and "thoughts". This is why it can be hard for guys and girls to "control themselves".

I did hold Trevor's hand while we were dating so i know what my dad meant when he said that. Just be careful. Because I've seen to many times in young dating couples where hand holding leads to one thing and then something else.

[BroTrevor]

Ok, look around. How many young couples do you see (even the ones that ascribe to believing the "message") that even make it to the altar without kissing first. It's not many...I'm telling ya it's not.

It's almost as hard to find the ones that are still virgins but that's another story.

That being said, do we want to be one of those statistics?

The devil goeth about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. On every billboard the devil's agenda promotes sensual things to stir the emotions and passions. Every commercial. Every grocery store line. Everywhere you see things that are promoting sex. Seems to me we don't need to help the devil any by our own actions.

Every guy should know that if he holds a girls hand, he's not going to want to stop with that. Why fight that battle? Do you think the pleasure of holding her hand is going to be that great that it is going to out-weight how much harder the battle for purity is going to be?

It wont be...I can tell you that.

As far as girls not being able to control themselves, I don't think so much they are ensnared by the "not being able to keep their hands to themselves" out of physical motivations as much as guys, but it is more of an emotional battle. There is however, many girls out there that, to appease their own desire to be loved and their own emotional "needs", have used touch to ensnare a guy into giving the girl her needed emotional "love". I think this is what Hotshot was talking about.

Let's not be naive on this subject. The devil is out to get you. Don't help him in his job.

[Babyruth]

This is from me personally, so you can take it with a grain of salt, but I think it's wrong to hold hands until you are married. Now most people would say I'm being legalistic, but who cares. I'd rather be legalistic and not regret something later than do what I want and be sorry later. As innocent as holding hands seems, it can lead to other things. Something Leah's mom said last night that I agree with 100% is that you shouldn't do anything with your fiance/girlfriend/boyfriend that you wouldn't do with any other person once you are married. For example, once you were married, would you hold hands with another man/woman? I certainly hope not. If you can't wait until you are married, then something is wrong.

[AlanaH]

I was always taught basically these points:
1. No official courting until he's asked her father if he can spend time with her and be around her, etc.
2. No being completely alone together in the car until he's asked your father for your hand. (basically, time of proposal of marriage)
3. Crowd settings everywhere or at least one chaperone while courting.
4. No holding hands until officially engaged.
5. First kiss is at the altar.

[Philippe]

I have found an interesting quote


THE.SIXFOLD.PURPOSE.OF.GABRIEL'S.VISIT.TO.DANIEL_ JEFF.IN DA 45-88 SUNDAY_ 61-0730E
67 You women, I've hollered at you, now I'm going to take up for you in a minute. See? The woman is a weaker vessel. I know there can't be a bad man 'fore there's a bad woman. But men who knows that, men who knows that you are a son of God, and take advantage of a woman, shame on you. No matter what she does, she's a weaker vessel. And you know that. If she goes to acting unladylike, take her by the hand and talk to her like a sister. You're a son of God. Don't do them evil things. Look at Joseph; he was an example to you.



[...] but I think it's wrong to hold hands until you are married.

Well, I would not go as far as that... At least, I do think that it would be appropriate for a boy to take a girl by the hand when he is going to ask her if she wants to marry him. And I think there might be some situations where it could be appropriate.

[AlanaH]

Well, the way I see it, he'd have to take your hand to slip on the ring...:)

[God'schild]

personally i don't think theres nothing wrong with holding hands when your engaged..
and to have a chapron(sp?) with you while your courting i don't think i could handle one because how are you suspose to get to know the person. I agree that hanging around a group of people is the best way to get to know the person.

I don't understand why a chapron(sp?) is needed i guess i won't because of the way i was raised my parents didn't come to the message untill i was like 6 or something.

[SisTrev]

it is hard to get to know the person with a chaperon present. I'd say just dont go anywhere alone. Make sure where ever you go there is other people around.

[EllyMae]

So, when you say there should be other people around, do you mean in public (like a restaurant, park, etc.)? Or with other people that you know?

[Jezz]

It'd have to be with people you know and that share the same values as you, more than likely people in the message. Worldly people wouldn't think twice seeing you hold hands with someone or kiss them or whatever.

Personally I think a chaperon is a good idea, while a group setting is a good idea for the most part you can't really have an intimate conversation with a whole group of people. A chaperon really shouldn't be near enough to hear you talking, they should just be there to make sure you don't do anything inappropriate. Like if you go out to a restaurant they shouldn't necessarily be sitting at your table, probably a table further away where they can still see you but not hear you. Or if you went to a movie they'd sit a few rows back or something.

[AlanaH]

Except for the fact that believers shouldn't go to movies, I agree with you.
And normally the chaperone is someone related to either the guy or the girl, or a really close friend of both of them. It's generally not an awkward situation.

[NoahL]

Except for the fact that believers shouldn't go to movies, I agree with you.

Besides this fact.... Why would you want to go to the movies for a date anyways? That would be a stupid thing to do imho. If you're on a date you want to try to get to know the other person better, but if you're sitting in a movie people are gonna complain if you're talking. The only thing you would learn about your date at a movie is, "Do they prefer popcorn or skittles?"

[SisTrev]

i was meaning just in a public place in general. Like at a resturant something. But going out as a group with other believers is always a plus.

[JoeC]

I agree with what Jezz said. Take someone with you, even if they're seated at another table in the resteraunt or shopping across the street. Failing that, practice accountability with the girl's father (or, if he doesn't care, find an accountability partner who does). Tell him where you are going and what time you will be back. Of course, the father is the ultimate voice in this discussion. If he doesn't want his daughter with you unless there's someone within 5 ft, the two of you better tie a five foot line to some Christian and haul 'im along.

Jesting aside, there is another concern I have. From some here I am sensing an attitude that wants to push the borders on courtship.

"Can I hold hands?" "Can we go off alone together?" These kind of questions are fine to ask, but what attitude are we asking them in? I truly hope that it's the attitude "What can I do to put a guard on my emotions and my body?" Not "How much of the package can I unwrap before we're married?"

My personal views on the matter are that hand holding is without question regulated to after the engagement. The quote provided by our brother Philippe doesn't concern romantic holding of the hand, and considering that Brother Branham told his daughter - that a handshake after church with a young man she was interested in would be fine... maybe - I think he would have strongly veered away from any romantic touching.

Paul said that it is good for a man not to touch a woman. The Greek word there for touch means "to touch meant to touch again." We know what that means... a touch with intent behind it. A person may not start out with intent behind holding of the hands, but it can quickly lead to other things. Like I said, the question needs to be "What can I to to maximize the very slim chances I face of having my first kiss at the altar?" If you set the gate at holding hands, you have that much further to go if you accidentally cross it. If, on the other hand, you simply set the gate at kissing, if you transgress that gate, you have very little distance to travel till you arrive at the point where you won't have any part of the present to unwrap the night of your wedding.

Some have said that holding hands during engagement is also out of the question. I would leave that up to the couple - if they are strongly passioned they would be wise not to. Anyone who does hold hands before they're even engaged is naive, believing themselves stronger than what they are.

[azurity]

I was always taught basically these points:
1. No official courting until he's asked her father if he can spend time with her and be around her, etc.
2. No being completely alone together in the car until he's asked your father for your hand. (basically, time of proposal of marriage)
3. Crowd settings everywhere or at least one chaperone while courting.
4. No holding hands until officially engaged.
5. First kiss is at the altar.
Yeah, I was kind of brought up with the same ummm "standards." They were just the expected norms in the church. Not that they were ever preached, it was just kind of accepted.

I was so annoyed when I found out that Brother Branham actually didn't set out like that. He didn't say, "Don't hold hands while you're courting. You can start holding hands when you're engaged."

Rules! I needed rules! Not that I was in such a situation to use them myself, but how was I supposed to know if everyone was lining up, if there weren't rules?

Man, I was such a legalist. And I didn't know it.

Now... I don't know. I'm not in that situation. But I do know that I want my heart to be right in all things.

I took so long to type this that Joe has posted before I could... and yeah, I agree with him too.

[Jezz]

Rules! I needed rules! Not that I was in such a situation to use them myself, but how was I supposed to know if everyone was lining up, if there weren't rules?

lol

Contrary to what some people think it doesn't go Moses' Law, Paul's Gospel, William Branham's Rules it goes Moses' Law, Paul's Gospel, William Branham's Message.

I sometimes wonder if people actually feel conviction not to do the things Brother Branham said we shouldn't or rather they just feel convicted to do what Brother Branham said without feeling convicted not to the do activity itself. Like kissing before marraige, you should feel conviction not to do that regardless of whether Brother Branham said it or not. I'm not saying ignore what he said or go against what he said, rather your convictions should line up with his because shouldn't we have the same Spirit leading and guiding us?

Obviously this isn't directed at you azurity, that'd be preaching to the converted anyhow, it's just aimed out into cyberspace. I'm not sure I got my point across all too well but oh well.

[azurity]

You got got that out very clearly Jezz. Preaching to the converted... lol! It's so nice to be converted... and saved from the law of legalism, to come under grace.

You're exactly right. I used to see the Message as a set of rules to live by. That's why it bothered me when there weren't rules about certain things.

I thank God that some things are set out in black & white. But whether it is or isn't, it still takes the Holy Spirit to lead you, to reveal what is really right or wrong, and live that life out of you. Otherwise, it's just legalism, and has no life in it.

ISRAEL.AND.THE.CHURCH.3_ JEFF.IN IC 65-96 FRIDAY_ 53-0327
And if a man's borned of the Spirit of God, it's automatically he lives the Life. As I said the other night, drinking, smoking, gambling, drink, cursing, swearing, that's not sin; it's the attributes of sin. It's because you are a sinner, the reason those things come forth. But if you're a believer, those things can't come forth, 'cause bitter and sweet water can't come from the same fountain. A cocklebur could. A corn of wheat couldn't bear cockleburs, because the nature of it is wheat. It's got to produce what it is. And if the Holy Spirit's on the inside, it produces the Life of Christ. Amen. That's faith. Amen. All right.

Hmmm... Jezz, you made me go off topic!! How terrible of you!! Oh well. I actually enjoy talking about God... if you can't already tell!

[BroTrevor]

Alot of you in this thread were definitely worthy of greens.

Excellent convo.

[Skirty]

I’ve always been a big advocate for alone time, obviously not going over to the other person’s house together or something like that. Like sis Trevor said, just make sure you’re going somewhere public where there are other people.
I agree with what Leah’s mom said, (Ruth mentioned it), about not doing anything with them that you wouldn’t do with another unmarried brother or that you wouldn't do with another brother after your married. At least until you’re engaged, then I see no problem in holding hands.
Honestly if you can’t control yourself enough to hold your fiancés hand in public, then I think there are other issues you should be praying about and working out before you get married.
All that said, everyone is different, so for some holding hands may be a much larger deal than it is to me. If so then disregard this post completely and follow your own convictions :)

[EllyMae]

I think each individual relationship is unique.

The devil will tempt us no matter what. The important thing is that we don't give in to his temptation. And if you're not far enough in the Lord spiritually to be strong enough to say "No!" to those temptations, then I don't think there is any reason to start a relationship in the first place. We should be spiritually ready and set things right with God first, before we even think about developing a relationship with someone.

With that said, do I think it's DEFINITELY wrong to hold hands before marriage? No... As long as we don't let it become anything more than that, and if we are spirtually ready then that shouldn't be a problem. We are in control. If the temptation alone bothers you, then don't do it. Temptation will be stronger for others, and very little for some, so this situation will be different with each relationship.

However, the scripture Romans 14:21 come to mind. That if someone you're with should be offended that you're holding hands, then don't do it around them. We should be respectful of that..

As far as the chaperoning, I think a lot of that has to do with the ages of the couple. Haha... I could understand someone who is 16, 17, 18, 19 having a chaperon, but older than that, it would seem kind of odd to me. Group outings are good. As others have said, I don't think that couples should go anywhere alone. However, going out in public just the two, I don't necessarily think that's wrong as long as it's not on an everyday basis. I think age also plays a factor in that as well.

[EllyMae]

With that said, do I think it's DEFINITELY wrong to hold hands before marriage? No..

Just to add, I meant "officially married". When we become engaged we are married in God's eyes. I don't think it would be appropriate to hold hands before you are engaged.

[azurity]

Alot of you in this thread were definitely worthy of greens.

Excellent convo.
Thanks BroTrev!!

Now they've gone and got it back on topic again... sigh!

Hehe.

EllyMae, that was EXCELLENT! I need to give you a green for that.

Especially this part:

The devil will tempt us no matter what. The important thing is that we don't give in to his temptation. And if you're not far enough in the Lord spiritually to be strong enough to say "No!" to those temptations, then I don't think there is any reason to start a relationship in the first place. We should be spiritually ready and set things right with God first, before we even think about developing a relationship with someone.
Amen! Personally, I don't think that someone should even consider a relationship until they are sure they have the Holy Spirit. It changes the way you think, and what you look for in a relationship. But then, maybe that's just my personal conviction.

And the chaperone... coming back to what you said about Romans 14:21, I know it would offend people here if I went out with someone at night without a chaperone. Night, as in, after it was dark... even if we left before sunset, if we were coming back alone when it was dark. Even tho I'm now 22, and full of the Holy Ghost (and I would expect my "friend" to be as well!) it would still offend certain people. Personally, I don't think there is a need to do that, so I wouldn't do it.

[EllyMae]

Amen! Personally, I don't think that someone should even consider a relationship until they are sure they have the Holy Spirit. It changes the way you think, and what you look for in a relationship. But then, maybe that's just my personal conviction.

Amen, mine too!

When I said "spiritually ready" that includes being Holy Ghost filled. :)

[azurity]

*Nods in agreement with Elly*

You're awesome girl. And not just because you agree with me!

[EllyMae]

Alysa, next time you're in the U.S. and you get the chance to see me...

Don't be shy, you're more than welcome to come up and give me a big hug! :)

[azurity]

Oh yes... and the same goes for you, next time you're in Australia! *grin*

I wasn't shy was I? I thought you were more shy than I. But then, I usually am shy, so maybe I was... Anyways, next time, I'll definately be giving you a hug! A big hug!

When I said "spiritually ready" that includes being Holy Ghost filled. :)
I was just thinking on those words. I'm here at work, and it ain't the most bestest environment, but just re-reading that made me realise all over again what God has done for me...

Wow. It makes me want to cry for happiness! Isn't God wonderful?

[blessed]

He sure is azurity, He sure is :worthy: :worthy:

[EllyMae]

Oh yes... and the same goes for you, next time you're in Australia! *grin*

I wasn't shy was I? I thought you were more shy than I. But then, I usually am shy, so maybe I was... Anyways, next time, I'll definately be giving you a hug! A big hug!

Haha... I'm a little shy as well.

I used to be really shy when I was younger, but I've grown out of it mostly.

[azurity]

You girls are the best. Both of you.

Ok, here's another question I was going to raise before Godschild started this thread (I'm pretty sure it was here.)

I'm not sure if this just comes from the legalism that our church was set in, or from something Brother Branham said. It was certainly quoted as being said by Brother Branham, but I'm yet to find it in the Message.

How does everyone feel about the following statement:

"A guy shouldn't say 'I love you' to a girl until he's ready to ask to her marry him."

[SisTrev]

"A guy shouldn't say 'I love you' to a girl until he's ready to ask to her marry him."

I agree 100%

[EllyMae]

I agree 100%

Same here. :)

[jtucker]

I would never say I love you to a girl unless i am proposing or already engaged to her. i feel until that vow is given both should keep quiet no matter if they do or not.

[JoeC]

Good man......

[EllyMae]

Brother Josh, I know some guys that you should talk to... :undecided:

[Philippe]

How does everyone feel about the following statement:

"A guy shouldn't say 'I love you' to a girl until he's ready to ask to her marry him."

A Brother preach about it at a youth camp last year. From the notes he gaves:


Avoid frivolous relationships

You want to stay pure and virtuous – both emotionally and physically.
Do not be driven by a desire for companionship or intimacy.

Guard your heart and your emotions just as you would guard your physical virtue.


When you say to a girl you love her, you are giving a part of your heart to her... and if finally you marry someone else as it work out... a part of your heart would be missing. You want to give it all to the girl you marry.

[Unregistered]

what happens if the guy knows that the girl loves him and the girl may not have told him?? What do you do then??

[JoeC]

The Short Version (long version in "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"):

Sounds like this "theoretical" guy and girl aren't even courting yet. Get to that stage first (get the father's permission, express interest in the girl, etc). NOTICE! In order to begin courtship you don't have to say "I love you." Those are powerful words.

Now, if this is a courtship scenario, the guy, if he is ready, should ask the girl for her hand in marriage (after appropriate communication with the girl's father). Until the bond of marriage is there, the bond of "I love you" shouldn't be introduced either.

[blessed]

The Short Version (long version in "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"):

Sounds like this "theoretical" guy and girl aren't even courting yet. Get to that stage first (get the father's permission, express interest in the girl, etc). NOTICE! In order to begin courtship you don't have to say "I love you." Those are powerful words.

Now, if this is a courtship scenario, the guy, if he is ready, should ask the girl for her hand in marriage (after appropriate communication with the girl's father). Until the bond of marriage is there, the bond of "I love you" shouldn't be introduced either.

Just to make sure i understand you clearly.. You're saying that you should not say I love you until engagement or marriage? pLease clarify this?

[BroTrevor]

I would never say I love you to a girl unless i am proposing or already engaged to her. i feel until that vow is given both should keep quiet no matter if they do or not.

Ah but will you??

When those soft brown eyes start batting at you as you're staring into them... and she's soo pretty... and the candlelight is perfect...your heart is pounding....aching to tell her.

That'll be the test...

Heh heh.

[jtucker]

i believe i will be able to hold my tongue, but no matter what i think or feel, i have to stay in prayer about it, that i wouldn't put the cart before the horse.

[joris]

i believe i will be able to hold my tongue, but no matter what i think or feel, i have to stay in prayer about it, that i wouldn't put the cart before the horse.you are very blessed if you are able to hold the tongue :)

[Philippe]

and if finally you marry someone else as it work out...

Ooups it should have been "as it does not work out" or "if it does not work out".

I was thinkiing an Edit button was there to allows corrections, but I do not have one !

[Philippe]

Ah but will you??

When those soft brown eyes start batting at you as you're staring into them... and she's soo pretty... and the candlelight is perfect...your heart is pounding....aching to tell her.

That'll be the test...

Heh heh.

Well, at least having some guidelines like that help us see things from another point of view... and not be too fast to give our emotions.

But, even if we don't say to a girl we love her, she might just knows... particulary for those who are someone transparent...

[leahmb]

But, even if we don't say to a girl we love her, she might just knows... particulary for those who are someone transparent...

I totally agree with this. I think people after being with the other person for a while should be able to tell if they are loved. Because think on the flip side, if some guy walked up off the street and said he loved me, I wouldn't be flattered by it. "Actions Speak Louder Than Words"

Someone mentioned "I Kissed Dating Goodbye," (By Joshua Harris) and I thought I'd just say that I think every young person should read it! The title makes you think that you need to be in a relationship or have been in one, but that's not so. It has so much good advice that is totally relevant. And I can't really think of anything that isn't in line with the Message.

[marichino_freedom]

you are very blessed if you are able to hold the tongue :)


thats true...i agree

[joris]

But, even if we don't say to a girl we love her, she might just knows... particulary for those who are someone transparent...sometimes it seems I'm too transparent; sometimes it seems people don't understand much of what I feel... I should just not try to figure out whether people understand, as it always turns out to be another way

[EllyMae]

When you say to a girl you love her, you are giving a part of your heart to her... and if finally you marry someone else as it work out... a part of your heart would be missing. You want to give it all to the girl you marry.

That's terribly true...

Because, sometimes it doesn't even take that. Sometimes just liking someone (a lot) and it not working out, can make you feel like you lost a part of your heart.

We really have to guard our hearts...

[JoeC]

Just to make sure i understand you clearly.. You're saying that you should not say I love you until engagement or marriage? pLease clarify this?

Yup, that's what I'm saying - and my pastor will back me up. :D

Those words create a very strong emotional bond... if it's said before engagement and then the relationship breaks off, both parties have given a piece of their heart away that they cannot take back. It would also be very hard to become "just friends" after emotionally sharing with each other that deeply.

---I Kissed Dating Goodbye ----- buy the book ------ read the book----

[gingersnap4jc]

I am gonna make a sujestion. After reading I Kissed Dating Goodbye also read, When Boy meets Girl and there is also another one by Joshua Harris, but I can't recall it's name. I also went to one of his confrences about 5 years ago. I found them very helpful, it has tought me quite a bit about guarding my heart, and it is so hard. I just costantly am asking God to guard it for me.
Lord Bless, Mary

[blessed]

---I Kissed Dating Goodbye ----- buy the book ------ read the book----

Book not available, don't have cc to buy online.

[leahmb]

I am gonna make a sujestion. After reading I Kissed Dating Goodbye also read, When Boy meets Girl

Yes...totally agree...read this one too. I was going to suggest it, but couldn't remember the whole title...now I do. "Boy Meets Girl: Say Hello to Courtship"

[leahmb]

Book not available, don't have cc to buy online.

hmmm.....do you have a mailing address?

[AlanaH]

I agree with a lot that's been said here...way to go everyone. Man, just got the message that I've given out too much green today...<grin>

[JoeC]

There is a set of viewpoints I don't agree with on here.

The whole "My goodness, boy! If you can't control yourself to hold hands... then yeah! Don't! But for the rest of us people who can control ourselves..."

That attitude casts the person as being some sort of animal - which is exactly the truth. We are all animals in our flesh. That's why I have the Holy Ghost - to reign in the desires of my flesh... but I've also known myself to transgress the Holy Ghost too many times in even the small things, giving license to my flesh to have its way.

From those previous experiences, I KNOW I can't trust my carnal self and I don't want to take a chance of slipping into the flesh when it involves something as big as a relationship.

The whole point here is to keep yourself out of the way of temptation. The wise person will do this as much as possible.


"Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor. 10:12)

[AlanaH]

But still...then what is right and what is wrong? Or does it vary by person? Because that appears to be the thing in question. "Is it wrong for me because I can't control myself, or is it wrong period?"

[JoeC]

I don't know if it's neccessary to bother classifying something like this as right or wrong... such classifications lend themselves toward reasoning which can quickly lead a person wrong.

I think it's enough for us to know that things like this can lead places we don't want to go... no matter how strong we think we are. The strong country is strong not only because of it's armies, but also because of it's defenses.


And yes, Brother Trevor, what I'm saying can be applied to what we were talking about earlier. My arguement here defeats my arguement I gave you then. I admit defeat. It's not in the legalistic "are there some cases under which this is OK?" but in the "how can I better defend myself?"

[BroTrevor]

Victory!!!

heh heh

------------


In all seriousness to add to this conversation, there are things that are not always right and wrong. See the wine thread somewhere in this forum.

To try and cast everything in right and wrong leads us down a path we don't need to go down, when we classify things in these ways, we forget the big picture. We make everything cut and dry so that we can, of our own accord, fulfill the law. The fact of the matter is, you can't, you've already transgressed, and it's not about your strength anyhow.

What is the big picture? That Christ came to redeem you, and bring you back by HIS strength. The love of God that is shown in such a picture is so vast, so powerful, it should bring us all to tears over what He did for us.

The reason I believe that it would be improper to hold hands early in a relationship is multi-facted, but primarily because I don't believe that it would be the best thing to do to please my loving Jesus. It leads to the chance of sin, which is something I do what I can to avoid altogether, because I know it doesn't please HIM!

Since I am dead to self, and being born again live SOLELY to please my love, my Christ, my Jesus...the thoughts of anything contrary to that goal shouldn't even be an issue.

Idealistic...sure.

Achievable... oh yeah.

Or maybe I'm just rambling...

[eagleendtime]

Agree with you Bro. Trevor.

Early in a relationship? No. Why do they want to hold hands? Motive and objectives.

Come to observe it, how many married couples hold hands?

Let's put it this way, best when engaged or married and then disreetly (not every time). Check your motive and objectives.

[SisTrev]

the reason not many married couples hold hands is usally after they have kids and they cant any longer. I know this from experience. I miss holding my husbands hand. And i dont mind doing that in public. It makes me feel protected and safe as well as loved. But as i said....once the kids come along you dont get that chance very often, so if you're engaged or newly married then i can totally understand wanting to hold hands with your "better half".

[joris]

so if you're engaged or newly married then i can totally understand wanting to hold hands with your "better half".but this thread claims you should not hold hands while engaged, so it boils down to it (almost) getting lost altogether

[AlanaH]

[quote=BroTrevor]

In all seriousness to add to this conversation, there are things that are not always right and wrong. See the wine thread somewhere in this forum.

quote]

Wine thread??? Must have been before my time...but that's a good topic too, so I'll see if I can find it.

[marichino_freedom]

i remember that one.....its been a while, i should take a look.

unless it is Black and White, in the Bible.....right and wrong is kind of hard to define.

"Thou Shall Not Kill" is pretty direct.

but what about this:

As a veterinarian, I will have to perform "euthanasia", something I am not terribly thrilled with. It is for humane purposes, so that the animal doesnt suffer. But some people would argue that that is wrong. Is it? If animals do not have souls, is it wrong? Or is it wrong to kick a dog around and bruise him up, or drag a horse for three miles behind a truck? Some people say yes its wrong (like myself), but others bring up the same point: they dont have souls, so how is it wrong?

I know this has nothing to do with the original topic, but hey, when does it ever?

[AlanaH]

I'm just glad that I've never had to be in an awkward situation where it's like, "ok, now what?". Hopefully I won't have to be for a while, but I know that it's coming someday.

[leahmb]

i remember that one.....its been a while, i should take a look.

unless it is Black and White, in the Bible.....right and wrong is kind of hard to define.

"Thou Shall Not Kill" is pretty direct.

but what about this:

As a veterinarian, I will have to perform "euthanasia", something I am not terribly thrilled with. It is for humane purposes, so that the animal doesnt suffer. But some people would argue that that is wrong. Is it? If animals do not have souls, is it wrong? Or is it wrong to kick a dog around and bruise him up, or drag a horse for three miles behind a truck? Some people say yes its wrong (like myself), but others bring up the same point: they dont have souls, so how is it wrong?

I know this has nothing to do with the original topic, but hey, when does it ever?

Personally I think animals are different, otherwise God would have instructed that we all be vegatarians. But I think still need to respect God's creation.

[marichino_freedom]

my point exactly.

humanity and kindness to all of God's creatures

[jordancpeterson]

In levitical law it tells how to treat a birds nest when found on the ground.

[joris]

"Thou Shall Not Kill" is pretty direct.This is strictly about killing people
just look at all the Jewish laws about food - including do not eat pork, implying eating other flesh (thus killing the animals for it) is okay;

The other side of things, causing suffering on those animals for no reason is not a great way to deal with what God gave us; listen to your heart there I guess

[Jezz]

ISRAEL.AND.THE.CHURCH.3_ JEFF.IN IC 65-96 FRIDAY_ 53-0327
132 You know the day today. I went here not long ago to a place. And said, "We're going to have communion." And they took an old piece of loaf bread, and cut it up like this, in pieces, and passed it out amongst a bunch of people there, and everybody in the church taking communion. Brother, that's not right. Your heart's got to be right with God before you take communion.
Isaiah prophesied of it in the 28th chapter and the 8th verse, if you want to look it up. He said, "The tables are full of vomit, all filthiness and uncleanliness everywhere." He said, "Who can I teach doctrine? Who can I give understanding? Those that are weaned from the breast." Our little old baby's back here playing along. When we ought to be teaching somebody else the powers of God, we're still fussing about whether it's right to do this or that. "Tables full of vomit."

[blessed]

Amen!!!!...................

[marichino_freedom]

This is strictly about killing people
just look at all the Jewish laws about food - including do not eat pork, implying eating other flesh (thus killing the animals for it) is okay;

The other side of things, causing suffering on those animals for no reason is not a great way to deal with what God gave us; listen to your heart there I guess


i just brought it up because there are protestors (PETA) that will complain (and even get a bit rough at times) outside of labs and even animal hospitals. many of them think that euthanasia is wrong because you are killing the animal, but if it is suffering, it is more humane to help them die.....they dont think so.

[JoeC]

<Rolls Eyes>

What's the difference between squishing a bug and killing a ferrel cat? Both would be nusances, but one we see as being worse because of the emotional attachment we give to their kind.

Oh, and we're majorly off topic. And I just helped derail us further. :o

[marichino_freedom]

I think it came from "defining right and wrong"

[leahmb]

<Rolls Eyes>

What's the difference between squishing a bug and killing a Ferrel cat? Both would be nuisances, but one we see as being worse because of the emotional attachment we give to their kind.

Oh, and we're majorly off topic. And I just helped derail us further. :o

Actually I try not to kill bugs...well any that "ooze." I try to let flies out and carry spiders or big bugs outside. But mosquitoes I have to admit I have no mercy on.

[Chelles]

my point exactly.

humanity and kindness to all of God's creatures

You know...sometimes euthanizing something IS humanity and kindness. (I work in a veterinary clinic :tongue_sm) You could say yeah..it's awful to euthanize strays.....however...is it better to inject the enthanasia solution IV and them not feel a thing, or be hit by a car, starve, or die of a disease? Yes, abusing animals is extremely wrong. I would be one of the first to get me a picket sign and join a protect march if I thought an animal was being neglected or abused. However, I've seen countless animals "put down" and they never feel a thing.

Another thought is that Bro Branham hunted. For meat (or even population reason....better for a sudden death than starving cuz there isn't enough food for them) However, I remember Bro Branham talking about how the white men killed the buffalo for sport and how wrong that was....

Another thing....why are you killing that insect? I think it's wrong if you're thinking "whatever..it's just a bug"....however..I wouldn't think twice about squishing a cockroach. :)

I think it all comes down to motive and objective.

[joris]

You know...sometimes euthanizing something IS humanity and kindness. (I work in a veterinary clinic :tongue_sm) You could say yeah..it's awful to euthanize strays.....however...is it better to inject the enthanasia solution IV and them not feel a thing, or be hit by a car, starve, or die of a disease?uhm
in our "humanistic" countries (In Holland anyway, sadly it seems to be taking a leading position in this) euthanasia - on human - is thought of as "okay" in certain circumstances (like in coma situation, or the idea of the only thing resting for a person would be long suffering).
This goes very far; with all the medical stuff we have, we find ourselves to be forced to "decide to kill" or "decide to let suffering continue";

Some time ago, people were even talking on relaxing criteria's on when euthanasia is allowed, I assume it was by a very "humanistic" party which was in government; thinking of the most extreme case of someone being just tired of life and euthanasia being just possible... it makes one see this is so very very wrong - though those "humanists" wouldn't care about one life less anyway

<offtopic>
Another thing....why are you killing that insect? I think it's wrong if you're thinking "whatever..it's just a bug"....however..I wouldn't think twice about squishing a cockroach. :)oh but I heard you might be getting more cockroaches if you'd squish; if that's true you would have to think twice and you'd have to drown it to avoid that ;)

[marichino_freedom]

thats true. this past summer, i believe, there was a big debate about a woman in florida and her family "pulling the plug". how do people decide? if the person is brain dead and shows no signs of improvement, what do you do? true, there are miracles, but how long do you wait? how much money do you spend?

if that ever happened to me, i wouldnt want to burden my family, and i would hope that they would "pull the plug".

[jordancpeterson]

thats true. this past summer, i believe, there was a big debate about a woman in florida and her family "pulling the plug". how do people decide? if the person is brain dead and shows no signs of improvement, what do you do? true, there are miracles, but how long do you wait? how much money do you spend?


That is why you must have the leading of the Lord in your life! He'll know the right time to pull the plug if anyone is supposed to be pulled.

[AlanaH]

thats true. this past summer, i believe, there was a big debate about a woman in florida and her family "pulling the plug". how do people decide? if the person is brain dead and shows no signs of improvement, what do you do? true, there are miracles, but how long do you wait? how much money do you spend?

if that ever happened to me, i wouldnt want to burden my family, and i would hope that they would "pull the plug".

I was in the town in Florida when that whole thing happened...
And there were people lining the streets protesting for and against and all that. It was pretty sad really, but I would have done the same thing. And I would have wanted my family to do the same thing.

[AlanaH]

Oh yeah...
And a sister in our church recently had to make the same decision regarding her husband. After some council from the ministry, they decided to let him go Home because he wanted to.

[HotShot53]

I think half the problem with the woman in Florida wasn't so much the pulling the plug... it was that her parents and family said she wasn't that far gone, and with the proper therapy and such could improve... and that the husband refused to provide the therapy and just wanted the money...

[Babyruth]

I don't think so. I come from a medical family, and they all agreed that based on what was told, she wouldn't have survived, she would have just been a vegetable. I told my mom that I want her to pull the plug on me too. In my class at the hospital, we made living wills. It's not legal, but it's there if my mom or dad ever needs it. Living wills are really good to have.

[marichino_freedom]

i agree, that way your wishes are respected

[Babyruth]

Yeah, and then your parents or family has something to know what you want, so they don't have to argue.

[marichino_freedom]

exactly. :ninja:

[azurity]

Wow, this thread has really grown since I was on here last! I think the last time I was on here was when I asked the "I love you" question.

It wasn't that I had a problem with it myself, but because I heard it set down as a "rule" that Brother Branham said it, and when I saw it being broken, I was kind of confused. Even tho I'm not confused about that any more, I thought it would make interesting discussion.

So, in short, I agree with y'all.

You can now all carry on talking about euthanasia once more...

[blessed]

You people continue to amaze me ... this thread started of as holding hands while courting/Dating now its on euthanasia

[Babyruth]

:rofl: Maybe it's a sign.......

[marichino_freedom]

What, to euthanize people who hold hands? :peep: :012: :surrender

[Babyruth]

:D..............................:D

(maybe...:D)

[blessed]

:rofl:


:lol:


You guys are funny !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[eagleendtime]

We turned the corner from someone talking about animals, I suggest getting back on the tracks or lay a new set under a new thread about eutnanasia.

[AlanaH]

I concur....Very entertaining to read though. :)

[tadi]

holding hands or not shld nt be an issue or a doctrine, tho 2 sum it may be provocative, sittin 2gether thats funny , i mean wat difference does it make sittin at public places wit non believers, wld u rather sit wit a non believer or a believer?its a mstake coz guys have spiritualize things that ought not be....i mean lyk we all knw how kids cum to the world, isnt it the same for non believers n believers?bt i do understand it shldnt be done for long(holdin hands) coz it might start a ripple of things!its all abt motive n i wld luv to be 2gether wit an one i luv, sit chat u knw, dnt wanna marry a stranger...its natural

[BroTrevor]

holding hands or not shld nt be an issue or a doctrine, tho 2 sum it may be provocative, sittin 2gether thats funny , i mean wat difference does it make sittin at public places wit non believers, wld u rather sit wit a non believer or a believer?its a mstake coz guys have spiritualize things that ought not be....i mean lyk we all knw how kids cum to the world, isnt it the same for non believers n believers?bt i do understand it shldnt be done for long(holdin hands) coz it might start a ripple of things!its all abt motive n i wld luv to be 2gether wit an one i luv, sit chat u knw, dnt wanna marry a stranger...its natural

I don't have any issues with guys and girls "sittin 2gether"

but "holdin hands" as you said, can start the "ripple of things"

and just why on earth do you want to go there? Stay pure...Guard your heart..

and use vowels!

[blessed]

ha ha ha... Is he makin ur brains work overtime Bro T :D

[BroTrevor]

ha ha ha... Is he makin ur brains work overtime Bro T :D

The forums should be a nice relaxing place...not straining...

[blessed]

I agree ...................

[leahmb]

Me too :D.....

[marichino_freedom]

haaaahaaaaa......:moron: :rofl:

*ahem......i lack composure today*

i concur as well

[blessed]

Did u drink some of countrygurl's red bull :D

[marichino_freedom]

must've :D

[fredmaina]

i cant say anything about holding hands.for siiting together in church,well thats ok but for me i dont think i would really be attentive in church that much.or maybe am abnormal trust me i once sat next to a sister i had feelings for and she had feelings for me and hey we kept staring at each other.we were not in a relationship then anyway so i guess i was just immature!!!

[jordancpeterson]

I was kind of surprised to hear that Brother Byskal doesn't even allow engaged couples to sit together in church. Don't get me wrong I think that's great. Brother Green seemed to get flack about only letting engaged couples and on sit together. I kind of got the impression he was one of the more strict out there. Good to see that he's not alone. :)

[marichino_freedom]

thats interesting..... :think: :unsure:

[leahmb]

I was kind of surprised to hear that Brother Byskal doesn't even allow engaged couples to sit together in church. Don't get me wrong I think that's great. Brother Green seemed to get flack about only letting engaged couples and on sit together. I kind of got the impression he was one of the more strict out there. Good to see that he's not alone. :)

To 'clarify,' I don't think that the couples are not 'allowed,' but it's just kind of one of those things that has never been encouraged and reasons against it have been given. But if a couple sits together, most likely they won't be broken up, but most people have respect and don't do it.

[marichino_freedom]

thats a very hard thing to do in a small church

[jordancpeterson]

To 'clarify,' I don't think that the couples are not 'allowed,' but it's just kind of one of those things that has never been encouraged and reasons against it have been given. But if a couple sits together, most likely they won't be broken up, but most people have respect and don't do it.
Ah ok... :)

[Babyruth]

I think it's good not to encourage couples to sit together. We come to church to hear from God and to feed on the Word. Not to be seen or to see. Even sitting by friends can sometimes be distracting. Christ should be our focus during church. Afterwards, do what you want, but church is for God.

[EllyMae]

Couples sitting together in church... Hmm...

I think it's best to respect the wishes of your pastor, and the rest of the congregation (if it would be offensive to some).

But, even if nobody minds... If you're not where you need to be with God (you shouldn't be in a relationship in the first place), but you definitely shouldn't sit next to someone that could take your focus off of the Lord.

[joris]

I was like, what are you guys talking about.
Then again, I recognise that... uhm; that only looking in "that" direction where "she" is (for whatever reason) might be confusing enough -- though I'm saying that in the position of one who didn't have a relationship and didn't really *want* those feelings to grow. You imagine for yourself how it'll be if both are totally in love and... but remember, God is not cold, harsh, He sure understands all of it.

[joris]

We come to church to hear from God and to feed on the Word. Not to be seen or to see.I agree there, but more in the sence that... in some place there's a tendency, with youth churches being held there, that, people are there, more focusing on finding a partner or so, than being with God (or so I was told anyway)

[JMG]

Personally I feel that a couple should not hold hands or sit together in church until they are engaged to be married.

[EllyMae]

How about holding hands WHILE in church...

Know of a couple that did that, unfortunately.

[God'schild]

I don't find nothing wrong with holding hands be for marriage as long as it doesn't go farther.

where does brother branham say that you can not hold hands before marriage??

[joris]

I don't find nothing wrong with holding hands be for marriage as long as it doesn't go farther.

where does brother branham say that you can not hold hands before marriage??13 pages and still no clear quote suggests quotes on that aren't easily found. Bro Trevor indicated earlier he thought this is/might that sort of thing that doesn't have a strong "right", "wrong" statement anywhere in bible (and if it's not in bible, it won't be in branham's words either, right, other then, perhaps, a personal conviction that is not anything near a God's-authority-word).
Try and follow Holy Spirit on what He's leading here.

[leahmb]

13 pages and still no clear quote suggests quotes on that aren't easily found. Bro Trevor indicated earlier he thought this is/might that sort of thing that doesn't have a strong "right", "wrong" statement anywhere in bible (and if it's not in bible, it won't be in branham's words either, right, other then, perhaps, a personal conviction that is not anything near a God's-authority-word).
Try and follow Holy Spirit on what He's leading here.

Exactly!

No scriptures or quotes have said it's 'ok,' but there's no definative 'no' either. I think this is definately a personal conviction issue and maybe the best way to deal with it is to ask your pastor when the issue arises.

[joris]

Exactly!

No scriptures or quotes have said it's 'ok,' but there's no definative 'no' either. I think this is definately a personal conviction issue and maybe the best way to deal with it is to ask your pastor when the issue arises.yes you can ask, though realise you'll just hear "a" personal conviction.

Try and find what, through prayer, your own conciousness is saying to this, and respond to that. If you keep feeling really unsure about this, maybe the answer -- for you -- is "don't", while the answer may be just "sure, go ahead" for others. (I believe there's something like that, though in the context of foods, in Romans 14)

[Babyruth]

uhm if it's really a question to you, perhaps... though realise you'll just hear "a" personal conviction.

You might as well try and find what, through prayer, your own conciousness is saying to this, and respond to that. If you keep feeling really unsure about this, maybe the answer -- for you -- is "don't", while the answer may be just "sure, go ahead" for others. (I believe there's something like that, though in the context of foods, in Romans 14)
Very true. However, you should respect your pastor enough to listen to what he says if you ask. If I had a question, I'd trust my pastor to help me make a Bible-based and Word-based decision. If he can't do that, then I think it's time for a pastor who can help you. After all, he's our shepherd, we have to be able to trust him.

[marichino_freedom]

i sit between seth and his sister every week in church......and i have no trouble concentrating on whats being preached. but its not that easy for everyone, i guess.

[joris]

Very true. However, you should respect your pastor enough to listen to what he says if you ask.it'd be kinda respectless to not listen if you were asking ;)

[Babyruth]

it'd be kinda respectless to not listen if you were asking ;)
Exactly my point. :)

[EllyMae]

it'd be kinda respectless to not listen if you were asking ;)

Unless what they're telling you is complete bogus. :D But let's hope it wouldn't be!

[Angelo]

Our pastor prohibits holding hands before marriage. It is nice to hold hands, but it is more benefitial for the sister to not let her hands be touched or any part of her body until the day of marriage before the altar. I also agree that propositions be made only when the brother is determined to marry her. Most but not all woman are vulnerable to believe and be hurt easily, that is why brothers need to respect and be careful on what we confess to them.

[BroTrevor]

"prohibits??"

[Angelo]

Yes, Bro T. And based on what has happened in the past I would strongly agree with this decision. The youth (not all) is not that strong to overcome temptations, and this is made not to prohibit them from loving but to help them avoid circumstances that may lead to dissapointments. It is better to abstain than to regret.

[BroTrevor]

It is better to abstain than to regret.

Agreed on that point.

Just, well, we need to only "prohibit" until a life change takes place...

prohibit is just such a strong word.

[Babyruth]

Agreed on that point.

Just, well, we need to only "prohibit" until a life change takes place...

prohibit is just such a strong word.
Yeah, it is strong, but maybe it's not as strong to Angelo as it is to us. Maybe language usage differs. And even if it doesn't, I can agree. Sometimes it's better to prohibit then to have no boundaries. I've seen a lot of couples take liberties that worries me. And not just engaged couples. I think it should be as strong as the pastor thinks is necessary. After all, he is there to protect and keep the sheep. Of course that does not mean he should tell them how to live, but if he's a Godly pastor and relies on God, then he'll do what's right. And that's why we pray for our pastors. :)

[jordancpeterson]

Agreed on that point.

Just, well, we need to only "prohibit" until a life change takes place...

prohibit is just such a strong word.

The Bible prohibits killing last time I checked. ;)

[BroTrevor]

The Bible prohibits killing last time I checked. ;)

Good thing too, else how many people would you have killed by now?

I shudder to think.

[Jezz]

I dare say there is a huge difference between God prohibiting something and your pastor prohibiting something. A pastor isn't a dictator, he answers to the people.

[JoeC]

I really don't think you can be to careful in guarding the heart and body of yourself or others. And I do mean others - I believe it's a function of the body to look out for our family in Christ and be forthright with them if we see even the smallest thing in their life that could begin to lead them of track.

It's far easier, far better, far less destructive, to lend a hand in fixing the track than to aid in setting right a derailed train.

[marichino_freedom]

Good thing too, else how many people would you have killed by now?

I shudder to think.


8..........lol.....sorry, i had to answer that.

there is a point where you can "help too much", i think. if two people are adults, there's only so much you can do to "help" them. as far as being younger, by all means, help away! :)

[jordancpeterson]

Nawww.. I like people too much to kill them. If I don't like someone I usually make them wear a Believe The Sing shirt instead. ;)

[BroTrevor]

Nawww.. I like people too much to kill them. If I don't like someone I usually make them wear a Believe The Sing shirt instead. ;)


Who is "The Sing"??

and why should I believe him?

[leahmb]

Who is "The Sing"??

and why should I believe him?

I think it's Believe The SiGN...go to believethesign.com (http://believethesign.com). Jordan got some shirts made up with the logo.

[jordancpeterson]

It's nice when people give people the benefit of the doubt... Brother Trevor... such a hypocrite! How could you? ;) (Leah, he knows what it is, he's just making fun of me and my typing mistake.) :D

[BroTrevor]

he's just making fun of me and my typing mistake.) :D

Yup.

:juggle:

[BroTrevor]

I really don't think you can be to careful in guarding the heart and body of yourself or others. And I do mean others - I believe it's a function of the body to look out for our family in Christ and be forthright with them if we see even the smallest thing in their life that could begin to lead them of track.

It's far easier, far better, far less destructive, to lend a hand in fixing the track than to aid in setting right a derailed train.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

Until he learns to fish, keep giving him fish.
Just be sure to teach him to fish, and why he needs fish.

Fish is good. :)

Hey! We need a Christian Fish Smiley. (sorry Nate, Christian used as adjective...I just can't keep from it somehow)

[Babyruth]

It's nice when people give people the benefit of the doubt... Brother Trevor... such a hypocrite! How could you? ;) (Leah, he knows what it is, he's just making fun of me and my typing mistake.) :D
:D I was going to do the same but I controlled myself. :D

[Angelo]

I really don't think you can be to careful in guarding the heart and body of yourself or others. And I do mean others - I believe it's a function of the body to look out for our family in Christ and be forthright with them if we see even the smallest thing in their life that could begin to lead them of track.

It's far easier, far better, far less destructive, to lend a hand in fixing the track than to aid in setting right a derailed train.
I agree, and provided that the minister clearly expresses it to the ppl out of "love".

Agreed on that point.

Just, well, we need to only "prohibit" until a life change takes place...

prohibit is just such a strong word.
In the multitude of counsel, there is safety. This was addressed to the ppl in church, the youth needs guidance tho it might look unfair sometimes. It is better for a man not to touch a woman.

[NeedGod]

Agree with Angelo entirely. When you touch, it opens doors for lots of other things, things you may not have meant to do but they just happen nevertheless. Much in the same way, people don't intend to mess up, but by watching dirty movies, listening to songs that mush up the tender parts of our hearts and hanging with the wrong crowds gets them messing up. SO don't open even the slightest door for the devil and you are sure to keep him out :)

[leahmb]

At one of the camp devotions it was said that the brother should treat the sister when they are engaged (and during courtship) the same as when they first met...in regards to touching. I thought that was probably pretty good advice.

[jordancpeterson]

Yeah that is.

[godschild9213]

i think that theres more important uhm *things* to worry about in a relationship than just holding hands

i think that its alright as long as u dont go over that.

however i dont believe so much in sitting beside eachother in church..if they cant focus on the preachin or something then no shouldnt sit beside eachother... also i think a bible should be placed in between the 2 :yay:

[Nate]

i think that theres more important uhm *things* to worry about in a relationship than just holding hands

yeah. like thier birthday, anniversary, favorite foods, parrents' likes and dislikes... What, you mean sex? Sex is not a big deal. If it's all you can think about and it's all you can do to keep yourself off each other, then get married and then go crazy. You'll realize that it's such a small part in a healthy relationship.

however i dont believe so much in sitting beside eachother in church..if they cant focus on the preachin or something then no shouldnt sit beside eachother...
If they can't focus on the Word, then they don't belong in a relationship.

also i think a bible should be placed in between the 2
Why? It's not some magic talismen that's going to ward off evil. It's not going to do the two of them any good just sitting there. The Bible aught to be the center of a couple's life. Not something that's wedged between them to keep their elbows from touching.

[jordancpeterson]

I was visiting a church one time and I had been out helping with some technical issues so I was late coming into the sanctuary. And because of the way I came in and all I couldn't see if there was a seat up near the front but it looked like there was. I got up there to discover that they were all taken (reserved). So I turn around to go back to the back and a brother motions that I could sit on his pew and I thought he was going to scoot over next to a girl but instead he had me sit next to her. Anyway most would have considered her a very nice girl and because I was visiting it would have looked to any observer like I'm some new guy trying to flirt. I was like on pins and needles most of the service because the minister had this funny way of looking right over the piano at me and I thought he was looking right at me, mad. Course I think it was my imagination, but still I don't think I got a lot out of that service. Heh. From then on I try to be extra sure where I'm going before I go. I 'think' there was a Bible between us, but it really didn't matter about that but more what it looked like from the observer.

[blessed]

Anyway most would have considered her a very nice girl and because I was visiting it would have looked to any observer like I'm some new guy trying to flirt.

I dont' get that.. why would people think that.. wasn't it an available seat. lol...

[leahmb]

Also i think a bible should be placed in between the 2 :yay:

They have the Bible on CDs nowadays...

[tedward83]

It is better for a man not to touch a woman.
The flesh can't be trusted, no matter how much Holy Ghost you have.
we are tribune beings, Body ,Spirit, and Soul. Unbeliever, Make Believer, and True Believer.
Was listening to bro Tim Pruitt preach other day, and just a little of what he said, he did a good job bringing this out.
-The flesh is an animal, a beast. At the zoos, they have signs saying do not feed the animals, there is a reason, you feed the animal, it wants more, you cant control him, then he wants more, he rises up, and sometimes attacks. He typed it to feeding the flesh, just letting the bars down and feeding the flesh, it will rise up and soon you cant control it, it will cause yourself hurt, and those around you to get hurt, and things can happen that you can't go back and change.

[godschild9213]

ok so i think i mustve gave the wrong impression on what i think to alot of ppl...


like when i say more important things than holdin hands i mean like kissing huggin sex before marriage etc.. you shouldnt do ANY of them!

altho this is an important matter if my boyfriend didnt believe or just iddnt want to hold hands id be fine with it. Im not worried so much about it as some.

& bout the Bible in between..i really meant like not touching..you should look at urself as if u were the observer if u feel or look wrong then move or something. & yes if they cant focus on the Word they shouldnt be together...

[godschild9213]

It is better for a man not to touch a woman.
The flesh can't be trusted, no matter how much Holy Ghost you have.
we are tribune beings, Body ,Spirit, and Soul. Unbeliever, Make Believer, and True Believer.
Was listening to bro Tim Pruitt preach other day, and just a little of what he said, he did a good job bringing this out.
-The flesh is an animal, a beast. At the zoos, they have signs saying do not feed the animals, there is a reason, you feed the animal, it wants more, you cant control him, then he wants more, he rises up, and sometimes attacks. He typed it to feeding the flesh, just letting the bars down and feeding the flesh, it will rise up and soon you cant control it, it will cause yourself hurt, and those around you to get hurt, and things can happen that you can't go back and change.


amen its hard when u let the bars down & let the flesh eat.. You have to totally anhilate the world...

sounds like an awesome sermon wish I could listen=]

[redeemed]

It is better for a man not to touch a woman.
The flesh can't be trusted, no matter how much Holy Ghost you have.
we are tribune beings, Body ,Spirit, and Soul. Unbeliever, Make Believer, and True Believer.
Was listening to bro Tim Pruitt preach other day, and just a little of what he said, he did a good job bringing this out.
-The flesh is an animal, a beast. At the zoos, they have signs saying do not feed the animals, there is a reason, you feed the animal, it wants more, you cant control him, then he wants more, he rises up, and sometimes attacks. He typed it to feeding the flesh, just letting the bars down and feeding the flesh, it will rise up and soon you cant control it, it will cause yourself hurt, and those around you to get hurt, and things can happen that you can't go back and change.

That really makes sense. Why risk having something happen that could have been prevented?

[NeedGod]

Lol, could a long extended handshake be termed as hand holding, :lol:
Guys seem to derive pleasure from holding hands too long. However, I agree with Tedwards, it is better to keep away entirely than to sin

[redeemed]

LOL, I didn't think of that ;)

[Babyruth]

They have the Bible on CDs nowadays...
And after all, we are living Bibles....

[leahmb]

And after all, we are living Bibles....

Yup, Yup :D

Hmm....maybe we should steer this back towards the topic? What about holding hands through gloves?

[collegegirl]

Letter of the law vs. spirit of the law? <impish grin>

[joris]

What about holding hands through gloves?:think: what's so special about gloves :think:

[leahmb]

Because there's no skin-to-skin contact? Hmm???

[joris]

Because there's no skin-to-skin contact? Hmm???Does that mean you won't feel anything? Even if you feel a bit less, if that still causes big emotions, there's little difference with just hand-holding.
If, on the other hand, you feel nothing special anymore (emotionally speaking), than nothing could be against it, no? :confused:

[redeemed]

Hrmm...I just remeber what Bro. Pruitt says at the LA camp, he says that if you want to hold his/her hand (and there's not a ring on her finger ;) ) then go find a stick and you can each hold one end of the stick.
This sounds like he is speaking out against holding hands until you're engaged.
Sorry, hope I didn't just mix it up more, I just thought that was really interesting.

[tedward83]

LOL, I heard about that rule too, at Lousiana Camp. Bro Tim is awesome

[jordancpeterson]

I dont' get that.. why would people think that.. wasn't it an available seat. lol...

In the Congo (and I'm sure other places too) they don't even let the brothers and sisters sit in the same section. I think that is good to some respect.... maybe not as rigid as they do it but to have kind of unofficial sections so that guys and girls are setting next to each other is a noble idea. Yes the seat was available but doesn't mean I should take it. It's a respect thing for me. And besides I really didn't want to get on this ministers bad side. Hehe. I'm sure he never gave it a thought but I wasn't excited taking any chances either.

[Nate]

In the Congo (and I'm sure other places too) they don't even let the brothers and sisters sit in the same section.

I think a point needs to be made here, that legalism very quickly turns to self flagellation. Be it physical, emotional, or spiritual, it turns into a sin of it's own.

[jordancpeterson]

Hrmm...I just remeber what Bro. Pruitt says at the LA camp, he says that if you want to hold his/her hand (and there's not a ring on her finger ;) ) then go find a stick and you can each hold one end of the stick.
This sounds like he is speaking out against holding hands until you're engaged.
Sorry, hope I didn't just mix it up more, I just thought that was really interesting.

And someone told me they actually saw two kids doing it this past year at camp... :D

[jordancpeterson]

I think a point needs to be made here, that legalism very quickly turns to self flagellation. Be it physical, emotional, or spiritual, it turns into a sin of it's own.

Hmm... I guess I need to look up what "self flagellation" means...

[Nate]

self-flag·el·la·tion
n.
1. The act of severely criticizing oneself.
2. The act of punishing oneself.

It comes from an old puritan practice of whipping oneself. With a whip, no less. It left scars. Sometimes killed.
The idea was that if you sinned, you had to beat yourself. To experience what Jesus experienced. Which kind of makes what Jesus did pointless, eh?

[Nate]

Here's some deeper history on it.

Mortification of the Flesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh) via Wikipedia.

[BroTrevor]

I think a point needs to be made here, that legalism very quickly turns to self flagellation. Be it physical, emotional, or spiritual, it turns into a sin of it's own.


Not that I'm any fan of legalism...

but...

<chuckle>

There are wise decisions you can make out of a loving heart.

and

There is legalism.

----------------------

Sometimes they look the same on the outside.

Sometimes, legalism is just sanctification in action.

Sometimes, legalism is self righteousness.

-----------------------

At a short youth camp, having such a rule isn't a bad idea. As a camp directory, you wouldn't want young people doing things that perhaps their parents or church wouldn't approve of. You definitely wouldn't want the start of a downhill physical relationship trend to have been started at your camp where young people are staying up way too late, not getting enough sleep, and are on a emotional high all weekend.

To the camp directory, this is a wise decision for liability sake alone. Perhaps not legal liablity, but in some sense a spiritual liability. Sure some young people would be mature enough to hold hands and nothing happen, but if so, they're mature enough to just abide by the rule for a long weekend for the sake of the weaker and it not bother them. If they have a problem with a small rule for one week, one would have to question their maturity over the issue completely.

[leahmb]

Wow! I just read 18 pages to refresh myself on everyone's views...interesting read. :)

[TommyLewis]

Hrmm...I just remeber what Bro. Pruitt says at the LA camp, he says that if you want to hold his/her hand (and there's not a ring on her finger ;) ) then go find a stick and you can each hold one end of the stick.


Haha...I remember this rule..."people" used to find the tiniest little twigs ever...no more than a quarter inch long...haha

[redeemed]

And someone told me they actually saw two kids doing it this past year at camp... :D

lol, it's possible although I didn't pay much attention.

[redeemed]

Haha...I remember this rule..."people" used to find the tiniest little twigs ever...no more than a quarter inch long...haha

lol, exactly, the figure, well...we'll get a really short stick, I'll put it in my hand, and then we'll be holding the stick...(in reality though,there is just a stick in between the hand holding ;) lol)

[joris]

lol, exactly, the figure, well...we'll get a really short stick, I'll put it in my hand, and then we'll be holding the stick...(in reality though,there is just a stick in between the hand holding ;) lol)Now THAT is SO SO SO legalistic -- Why bother taking that silly little stick if they aren't listening seriously anyway? :(

Anyway, as a side note, I have not much of an opinion here. Being a boy, and never been in any kind of boy/girl relationship, no, I don't feel anything particular about hand - But yea, I remember reading touch is/can be soo precious to a girl that it'd do a bit more than I could imagine

[TommyLewis]

Now THAT is SO SO SO legalistic -- Why bother taking that silly little stick if they aren't listening seriously anyway? :(


It's called a joke...

[joris]

It's called a joke...sorry - you just have to realise you can't always make out what's "sounding" funny without the sound. I mean, in text, jokes like this might easily be misunderstood to be serious.
Yes it seemed "funny" but sad. Doesn't mean it couldn't be true in this world we live in ;)

[AlanaH]

I remember when that was said...lol. I heard a lot of people talking about it.

[Stanley J]

I'd go for the gloves AND the stick...

[AlanaH]

At that point, what's the use? :)

[leahmb]

For the appearance, of course :tongue_sm

[jordancpeterson]

You have a rather cute sense of humor...

[BroTrevor]

You have a rather cute sense of humor...


Booooyyyy am I wondering how to take THAT one.

[jordancpeterson]

Booooyyyy am I wondering how to take THAT one.

Good grief... DO NOT read in to that at all. My communications skills seem to be lacking today... as well as logic... :D

[collegegirl]

Everyone has an aura, and when you cross into someone else's personal space, you are in their aura, their own "bubble" so to speak. When getting too close, sometimes even the most consciencious and "correct" people can get carried away with the euphoric feeling that comes with it, and the next thing you know you get carried away. Doesn't always happen, but why play with fire? Even the Bible says

PROVERBS 6
27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
28 Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?
29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.

How do you know that the girl that you are courting is going to be your wife? What if the courtship ends? Then what happends to all of the hand holding and such. Even when an engagement almost seems imminent...it still isn't right.

Until she is yours, don't play with her heart. Bro Branham strongly advised against it. Don't invade her personal space. When you get married, you will have plenty of time for that. And girls, don't tempt him. If you do, you are as good as his partner in an act of immorality.

We should be holding ourselves to a higher standard rather than trying to push the limits.

[leahmb]

Booooyyyy am I wondering how to take THAT one.

ehm, me too :confused:

But I guess to clarify...everything I think I've said on this topic has been said very light-heartedly. I quite agree with Martha! Until engagement, holding hands is out of the question... At the point of engagement, 'to each one his own.' I can see both sides of the coin at that point. I would probably lean to say that it's ok to hold hands at that point.

[BroTrevor]

Good grief... DO NOT read in to that at all. My communications skills seem to be lacking today... as well as logic... :D


Sorry buddy...I couldn't help it.

[BroTrevor]

We should be holding ourselves to a higher standard rather than trying to push the limits.


Wise words.

[zan-zan]

We should be holding ourselves to a higher standard rather than trying to push the limits.
....i certainly agree...

[AlanaH]

Same here. I've seen far too many cases (in the Message BTW) that went WAAAAYYY too far, and didn't end up engaged much less married after all. Better to hug the mountain than hang ten on the guardrail.

[leahmb]

Same here. I've seen far too many cases (in the Message BTW) that went WAAAAYYY too far, and didn't end up engaged much less married after all. Better to hug the mountain than hang ten on the guardrail.

Hahaha-make sure to read the WHOLE sentence...my eyes kind of stopped at "better to hug." :tongue_sm Maybe that's an idea for another thread...

[redeemed]

lol, mine too ;)

[JMC_785]

Ditto 3 posts ago!

[jordancpeterson]

Ditto the last post! ;)