Immoral Believers

[Jezz]

1 Corinthians 5:
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I was thinking about posting this in the Fort but I think this is a better place to discuss this.

Is this scripture saying you should have nothing to do with immoral brothers and sisters within the church? Because that would seem to be a wrong approach in some regards, now you don't want to be caught up in their sin but neither do you want discard them completely. They may be Bride and you cannot be sure if they are or are not, they may be predestinated to be saved still (if they are Gods seed). Because you cannot be certain should you not do what you can to help them? What would you say is the right approach?

Being a genuine Christian like Brother Branham was and saying "I want nothing to do with you because you're an immoral believer" seems to conflict in my mind.

[joris]

I have no clue; it seems there's no grace in that text, and your question is about grace (being loving)... :confused:

I guess the answer (well in fact the response that boils down to the fact that I don't have a real answer) is prayer,
"Lord in my eyes this person seems to be a 'fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner' give me your eyes of endless grace and love, bring that love into my heart for this person, Lord I need your grace for me to give grace for Him; oh if this person is in your eyes at the wrong place here, if You say this person is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - Lord give me the strength to deal with that -- in a loving way"

[AlanaH]

The way I've always heard it was like this:
If a person is going into a bad place, you don't go with them. (movie theater, bar..etc) places Bro. Branham said to stay out of. Because then, you are directly partaking of their sin. Basically, you don't have to be a part of their sin. If your business partner is an extortioner, then find a new business partner. Etc...etc.
In the Bible days, eating at a person's table was considered the highest form of friendship that you could have with someone who was not of your family. It was the highest honor to be invited to eat at another person's house, and you only went if you wished to be associated with that type of person. Thus, to eat at the home of an idolater, railer, and so on showed the friendship, and that was considered a bad testimony.

[azurity]

Jezz, back to your original question, how do you determine if someone is "immoral" ?

None are perfect, we are all growing in grace. If someone makes a mistake, I don't think it is for us to push them down, and decide that we can't speak to them.

I think we need to discern where the friendship is taking us. Is the fellowship drawing either one or both of you closer to the Lord? Or is it things that a son or daughter of God really doesn't need to be fellowshipping on?

This probably doesn't answer the question. Just more for consideration, really.

[becalive]

Being a genuine Christian like Brother Branham was and saying "I want nothing to do with you because you're an immoral believer" seems to conflict in my mind.


i think in these cases where they once were a believer and then they turn away. You must not go out of your way to be in their company, otherwise in someway you may be saying your actions are ok, when they are not.
Though prehaps if you saw the person in the shop, it wouldnt be wrong to talk to them, cause that would be being rude and unchristian like to ignore them.
But once they declare by mouth/actions that they no longer 'believe' (though they may say they do, but their actions are obviously out of cater of the word) the relationship difiantly would have to change.

has anyone had to deal with this in their church and how was it handled.
i have seen it happen. its a delicate situation. but in the end there cant be lowering of the bars of friendship. no matter how hard it may be.

[azurity]

Oh yeah, that can be really hard. I have had quite a few close friends who were once serving the Lord turn & go the other way.

They still say they believe God, and believe the Message, but like you said, their actions show they don't.

It's hard. And no, I don't have an answer.

[joris]

They still say they believe God, and believe the Message, but like you said, their actions show they don't.if they say they believe, and they are real friends, it should not be a huge issue to talk with them about, but why did you do "this", if it is like you don't understand them.
maybe... well they may see things differently, maybe wrongly, and, well; sharing your feelings or doubts there, might help them, might get them to reconsider what they've been doing, might get them to talk to ministers, anyway; it might help (or it might not).
as friends, sure shouldn't be pushing, but an open conversation should be possible (I hope?)

[JoeC]

Is this scripture saying you should have nothing to do with immoral brothers and sisters within the church? Because that would seem to be a wrong approach in some regards, now you don't want to be caught up in their sin but neither do you want discard them completely. They may be Bride and you cannot be sure if they are or are not, they may be predestinated to be saved still (if they are Gods seed). Because you cannot be certain should you not do what you can to help them? What would you say is the right approach?

Being a genuine Christian like Brother Branham was and saying "I want nothing to do with you because you're an immoral believer" seems to conflict in my mind.
Your question reminds me of the time the Corinthian church had to turn a brother over to the Devil for the destruction of his flesh that his soul might be saved (and we see later in the Bible that this really benefitted him).

I think that this scripture is speaking of cases where you have a brother or sister who is bringing sin into the camp and refuses to repent, seek forgiveness, and attain delieverance. A blatant sinner wearing saints' clothing. In those circumstances, I think you would agree with me that it wouldn't be expedient to support their behaviour with your friendship.

Psalms 1
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

[BroTrevor]

Being a genuine Christian like Brother Branham was and saying "I want nothing to do with you because you're an immoral believer" seems to conflict in my mind.

So we should just let them come to church, and continue sleeping with their mother as Paul points out in verse 1 of this chapter?

It's the whole "hate the sin but love the sinner" thing.

That phrase gets used a bit too much, and accepts a bit too much I think.

By loving this man, Paul told them to send him out of the church, because his body would be destroyed, but his soul might be saved.

That's love. Realizing what it would take to save that most important thing. His soul.

Love is not, "it's ok bro so and so...you're just battling something...you'll get through it. Keep coming to church, and we'll act like it doesn't happen."

Well, this bro in the scripture wasn't BATTLING, he was in open sin. What an approach to Christianity. The scripture even says the were PROUD of this. "Look at us! We're free in Christ!! We're so accepting even a guy involved in sleeping with His own mother is accepting! We're just a bunch of loving push-overs!"

Nah...I don't think that's what a Christian is. A Christian will, in love, show someone their own depravity of soul, that they might find Christ! Keep in mind, we don't just send someone out without a few conversations first. If it's truly a battle that the guy knows is wrong, that might be one thing. But to openly be in sin, and show no repentance or remorse...well, that might just be a different thing.

Then we may have to go to extremes...

but it's because of love. To save their soul.

Love isn't always "lovey dovey" like the world seems to think. Love does what is right and good for what is ultimately important.

It's all about love.

And God is love.

How the Holy Spirit must have vomited over that one.

[marichino_freedom]

basically, what you are saying is (this is for my own clarification) is that if someone is battling an addiction, for instance, or something else they know is wrong, and they are trying to quit/stop, they should not be rejected (which is something i wouldnt do anyway) but "loved" and prayed for so that they can overcome.

right?

[BroTrevor]

basically, what you are saying is (this is for my own clarification) is that if someone is battling an addiction, for instance, or something else they know is wrong, and they are trying to quit/stop, they should not be rejected (which is something i wouldnt do anyway) but "loved" and prayed for so that they can overcome.

right?

I guess that's how I see it. Are they really battling is kind of the key. Can they be brought to repentance? Do they want to be brought to repentance?

If not, then I think the "rejection" for the saving of their souls is in order.

(it's not really rejection if you think it through...it's to bring them back saved ultimately)

[marichino_freedom]

true.....

you are right. you cant save someone. they have to WANT to be saved. good ol' free will

[eagleendtime]

Birds of a feather do flock together. Watch your company that you keep.

Now a person can go through Justification, Santification, and then the Holy Ghost. The justififed may not look saved, but they are on that road. Sinners may attend services a long time, before making that first step.

Bro. Trevor covered the bases pretty good. The scriptures used here concerned a brother who was turned out of the church. Bro. Branham said we should do the same to, someone who is actually bringing a reproach on Christ.

There is two ways this is accomplished. The church does it. or the individual removes themselves by leaving the church altogether, going out into the world.

Meeting these people is difficult, but it happens. I have nothing to say on that matter, they ought to be rebuked (in a christ like manner). Bro. Trevor any suggestions.

[Angelo]

I agree, true love is shown in righteousness and not thru compromising with the Word. Sometimes ppl misinterpret grace and become too loose when it comes to moral issues. A true minister of God cannot let this kind of matter continue within the church wether it means separating friends, well, that applies to all I think, regular member or not.

Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

We must see true repentance from them that are caught up into this situation. There is a difference from the one who wants to escape from the sin, and the one who keeps on holding into sin (unbelief). That is dangerous. They just don't realize how God can be so upset with them. <sigh>

[Jezz]

Thanks for your responses everybody, they have helped :)

My problem with my understanding of those scriptures (note: the problem was in my understanding never with the scripture itself) was if somebody was being "immoral" and going through a tough battle to toss them out on their ear seems not to be a Christian thing to do after all everybody has battles and nobody is perfect in the flesh. But now my understanding is clearer :)

[JoeC]

OK. Here's another question, whcih recently popped up.

Where do we draw the line between beings friends with or witnessing to unbelievers and enacting Psalms 1:1?


Psalm 1
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

[HotShot53]

being friends with someone doesn't mean you have to be walking in their counsel, or standing with them in sin, or joining them in scorning...

[JoeC]

But, by your friendship are you endorsing their lifestyle?

Example:

A young sister I know was talking about one of her "gay" friends at school. I shared my opinion with her that for a Christian to have a friendship with a person living in open homosexuality wasn't appropriate. I used Psalm 1:1 to back me up. Does anyone here think I was in the wrong?

[marichino_freedom]

no......i dont think you were wrong

but what if you are friends with a gay person, yet they know where you stand on the matter. that you will not agree with them on it and you tell them its wrong.

[JoeC]

Here's the problem I see with that:

They (the open homosexual) has a definite spirit on them. If you spend time with them as a friend, you will almost neccessarily come underneath their atmosphere. It's not an atmosphere I'd want to be under.

NOW! If they are seeking help, then they are submitting themselves to your atmosphere. Entirely different situation. However, even under those circumstances, I would still limit one-on-one time. Bring a brother or sister along. It could be a trick of the enemy... and besides, you're efforts are much more effectual with two Spirit filled believers than one (the whole 1 chases a thousand, two ten thousand principle). Warfare tactics here people.

[marichino_freedom]

yeah, i know what you are saying.....i in fact, dont spend one on one time with her. i have been friends with her since we were in 5th grade, but this is a recent development. so, its hard to just say, bye see ya....you know?

[SisTrev]

personally...if i have a (female) friend that was gay I would not want to spend time with them...even if I had known her a long time...I'd always be worried about what she was thinking...that's just gross...and its even worse when a guy is gay because he usually acts like a girl and that's just gross.

[marichino_freedom]

like i said, she lives in lincoln. (well i didnt say that) so we really dont hang out now....even when she asks. the last time i saw her was in june at my friends wedding. its weird, you know? because our whole lives she was "straight", then one day she was "gay", doesnt really make sense.

i mostly talk to her online, when i do.

[SisTrev]

well its a spirit that comes on them...as joec said...its a trick of the devil...and being friends with someone who suddenly goes "gay" later in life has got to be hard. I'd say just keep praying for her that the "gay" spirit leaves her.

[marichino_freedom]

yeah....i know.

i have a cousin who is too......*sigh*

but like you said, pray