CURRENT TRENDS WITHIN "MESSAGE MUSIC"

[DMCNCUSA]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Hopefully this will start a much needed discussion which will lead to prayerful consideration and action.

My post is not regarding the site called "messagemusic", but in reference to singing, music and worship etc within those churches (especially in America and Canada, but by no means exclusive) that claim the Message brought by the last days prophet, Bro William M. Branham.

I have been priviledged to experience quite a number of song services and singing specials from a large selection of message believing churches. Also, It's been my pleasure to enjoy a number of recordings (professional and non-professional) from message believing singers and musicians. In an attempt to update my music library, I've been sampling some of the recent (and not so recent) recordings offered from message churhes, personal web-sites and various other means. What I'm finding is very dissapointing.

I've noticed for several years now, a trend to become wordly in our styles of music and singing. It is prevalent on the recordings as well as the song services of many of the church services in which I've been in attendance and/or listened to via alternate methods.

I'll be more specific as to what is bothering me (these are NOT in any preferential order):

1) Different cultures' music is influencing our styles and worship.
2) The attempt (and often-time success) of singers and musicians to sound and act like "artists" of popular secular music.
3) I think, we have lifted up singers and musicians to an unneccesarily high level, of perhaps stardom (for lack of a better word), thereby forcing some God-given gifts - and some not - into a place of too much importance.
4) The emphasis on choruses and repetive singing rather than hymns in the song service.

These concerns stated above are very broad and cover quite a lot of detail. If I went into specifics, I'd write a book!

Here is a recap of my observations:
* Music and singing has become more professional and less spiritual.
* Singers are elevated rather than God or His Word
* Simplicity is lacking or gone.
* choruses vs.Hymns in congregational singing
* Inviting or introducing cultural type music within the song/worship service.

I am in no way trying to be critical, judgemental, negative or devisive. No doubt there will be those (perhaps a majority) who very loudly disagree with me. I'm just curious to know if there are other believers who are sensing a downturn in our music.

I would also like for anyone to offer or suggest reading materials, quotes, scriptures etc for me to better discern music.

Thank you and God bless you.

[collegegirl]

I agree with you. I usually don't listen to the new christian music out, because I can feel a spirit coming on me when I listen, and the spirit isn't one of Christ, because of the way it causes me to act when and after I listen to it. If you have also noticed, many of the songs out there include Christ, or the more neutral term of God, but are focusing more on themselves. For example: Jaquie Velascez, (I hope I spelled her name right), and her song, "On My Knees". A beautiful song, but if you realize, most of it talks about "I", and "me", such as the lines: "I can be in a crowd/or by myself almost anywhere/when I feel there's a need/to talk with God/He is Emmanual". I don't remember where I heard it, but I remember someone making a comment about the new music vs. the old hymns. It was the fact that the old music glorifies God, and what HE did, while the new music glorifies self, and what self is doing.

If you search on the messages that were given to Bro. Branham, you will see him talk about music alot. Some of it because he couldn't sing exceptionally well, (but I still love to hear him sing "Only Believe"), and because he genuinely loved the songs that glorified Christ. He made a comment in Power of Transformation (PRESCOTT.AZ V-17 N-1 SUNDAY_ 65-1031M) that strikes true, and amazing for even back then.

"...And as I was hearing the--the first hymn, to the last, there's something about that singing; it's a worship that you just don't find no more. And it's always a great privilege for me when I come up here, I get, about once a year, or twice, to get to just fill yourself up with that goodness of them songs."

"Now in here, these gifts are--got to be watched. No gift... Have to watch it. Satan can impersonate any gift. Look at these Beatles now going to impersonate Divine healing: filthy, dirty, rotten, borned out of hell. See? All right." (QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS_ JEFF.IN COD SUNDAY_ 64-0823E)

If he says that about the Beatles, what about now. Has anyone ever heard a Beatles song? They are so MILD, compared to what is out there now. I don't care about the message behind the words. I listen to the music. Most of the so-called "christian" artists out there are 10 times WORSE than the Beatles, and I would much rather take a Beatles song to theirs sometimes. And those are just two quotes about the Beatles, and that kind of music. There are probably hundreds of others that talk about it. Bro. Branham would scream, "stay away from it!" One more quote, which many of you might (and should) find familiar:

RAPTURE.THE_ YUMA.AZ V-5 N-14 SATURDAY_ 65-1204
201 And then when them women passed by, all doing all kinds of rocks and things, and short hair, and painted faces. And as they passed by like that, supposed to be virgins to Christ... And when she passed by like that, I turned my head, you know with this... Just holding that in front of me; it was--it's disgraceful, the back of them. And there they was going like that.
And I turned my head to weeping like that. I said... I--I couldn't stand it there, Him standing there, me know that me a minister of the church and that's what I'd produced for Him. I said, "Oh, God, I can't look at it. Let me die. Let me--let me fade away," and like that.
And as soon as it went out--every time one of them would come, they'd go out to a certain place and drop off, and I'd just the sound of it as it went away. And then I heard something like a "Onward Christian Soldiers." And I looked, and here come that sainted bunch of little girls just exactly the way they was, all correctly dressed, their hairs hanging way down on their back, smooth, clean, marching like this to the step of the Gospel. She was the Word. And it looked like one out of every nation. I was looking at it as they passed by, and seen them pass by. Instead of going down, they started going up. And I noticed one of them trying, two or three of them trying--getting out of line; I screamed, "Stay in line." And the vision left me, and I was standing in this room screaming, "Stay in line."

[blessed]

I am glad to know that there are believers out there who are recognizing the trap of the enemy. About two years ago i attended an international convention in my country and i was shocked at the music, more like horrified and i saw believers praising and dancing to the worldy tunes, the words were nice but the beat it was terrible.

The beat is what brings the anointing, if u listen to some of the music Brother Branham screamed against the words were not bad at all compared to what we have today, but the beat is what we have to look at and now i see we bring those worldy beats and sing our blessed hyms with them. Its a shame to see how the devil has slipped in amongst us.

We have to realise that we must always have our swords on hand, identify the enemy and cut him out as soon as he comes in. When we bring in these music into the church we no longer worship Christ. We worship the devil and that's the truth the devil receives the worship we must never get so holy or so revelated that we don't look at the minor things any more.

[Unregistered]

I don't know if any of yall have heard about the video "Music, Might, and
Manipulation"..........It is a GREAT video, Bro. Marcus Becker from Germany
came to Bro.Jeff Jinkins church and did a servics on music and i very strongly recamend!

Bro.Becker was on his was to a youth camp to give this service and the whole
thing it 10hr long but the vidoe is only 2 hr, i wish i could have go to hear the whole 10hrs it open my eyes up to things i've never even though of with music!

We got the video off the web page www.bcfellowship.org
but i don't know if it's still on there its was made in 2000,
you might have to call for it.

[DMCNCUSA]

Yes I have the video. It was very good. Bro Becker obviously knows of what he speaks. Like you, I would appreciate a more in depth study. I understand after that service at Believer's Christian Fellowship, he went to either a camp or work shop or something or another hosted by Bro Paul LaFontaine. I have been unable to obtain any video's/ recordings of those meetings. Bro Becker was supposed to go into much more detail regarding his study at those meetings.
I would be curious to know how he brought it home to the singers/musicians within the ranks of the Message believing youth/churches.
God bless you.

[blessed]

Brother Becker came to Trinidad earlier on this year, his meetings were truly a blessing he did two meetings one on music and the other on dressing it was a real eye opener i hope he can come back soon.

[Babyruth]

A couple of years ago we saw it at a young people's service at our church. It was really good and made me realize how many "christian" songs aren't christian at all. I also realized that some of what I was listening to wasn't the best either. Sometimes its hard to apply it because a lot of those songs were some of my favorites, good words and catchy beats, but not worshipping the Lord. After that, when I heard some "christian" songs, I would listen for a while and they just seemed like noise. There is no holy annointing or worshipping of God. A lot of times I hear a neat song that may even be slow, but like a minister said one time, if it doesn't bring you closer to God and make you want to worship Him, then it isn't worth your time.

[collegegirl]

I remember up in Lima, OH, there was an article that was written in the Lima Newspaper about Christian rock and roll artists, and it started a really big discussion in church, (Bro. Jeff Jenkins), and several letters were written to the editor by Bro. Jenkins and some of the youth about how there is no such thing as Christian rock and roll, because it is un-Biblical. The response from people defending it was amazing. You had people writing in that were saying that Bro. Jenkins was wrong, and that is was probably b/c he had never heard it, etc. etc. There were as many as 2-3 letters at a time talking about the article (pro and con), and this went on for over a week! It's amazing how many said that they were saved at a r&r concert.

[JoeC]

These concerns stated above are very broad and cover quite a lot of detail. If I went into specifics, I'd write a book!

Here is a recap of my observations:
* Music and singing has become more professional and less spiritual.
* Singers are elevated rather than God or His Word
* Simplicity is lacking or gone.
* choruses vs.Hymns in congregational singing
* Inviting or introducing cultural type music within the song/worship service.


So far we have agreed with DMCNUSA that so-called Christian music is on the downward slide, but his point was that Message music is going astray.

Now, DMCNUSA, I have to ask you to clarify your observations, as I just disagree with a lot of your points and it's probably because I don't see where you're coming from. I'll go through it point by point and maybe we can clear up any misconceptions I have of the point you are making.

1. Music... becoming less spiritual and more professional.

Because you're concern is with the "current tredns within message music" I assume you are thinking of some specific group of singers. I have to ask "Who?" I know of no singers in the message even making money from their singing. All the cases I know of are purely ministry based and they're lucky if they even break even.

2. Singer elavated... not God.

This is a similar arguement to the first. I have to again ask "Who?" Most of the "professional" message singers (e.g. those who make a ministry of it - not that they make money from it) I know of are really quite humble. The ones that are not are usually youth who are growing in grace and learning how to submit themselves and their gift to God.

3. Simplicity lacking.

I just don't know where you're coming from on this. Simplicity in music? In verse? In worship?

4. Choruses are being used more than hymns.

You seem to think this is bad. I grant you that simple choruses like

Oh the love of God
How Great the Love of God
Oh the love of God
Oh the love of God

are not ideal. I much prefer something that conveys the feelings of the heart - and that takes some poetry.

But I'm also confused - do you mean old hymns vs. modern choruses - or are you merely unsatisfied with not singing the whole song?

5. Cultural influences

I fail to see where cultural music is a problem when worshipping God. I enjoy Celtic praise, black gospel, Jamaican, as well as typical european/american music.

On the flip side, I am not likely to enjoy a German praise service (they're a bit starchy), adn they're are not likely to enjoy black gospel.

Now, do I misunderstand you? If you could clear up some points I'd be most appreciative.

[MarieLenora]

JoeC, first I have to commend you for standing up for your oppinion, whether right or wrong. To me, as a church pianist and musician, music has never been a black-and-white issue.

I grew up listening to very traditional message music every Sunday. But this changed in our church as new people with different talents came in. Now my church has an organ, a piano, a bass and guitar, and a drumset. We tend to be more contemporary than traditional, and each of the musicians in our church comes from a very different musical background. Because of our eclectic mix, we tend towards a "Black Gospel" sound. To me, our music is nowhere near professional--however we do try to do the best we can. All I can say for sure is that the Holy Spirit can and has worked through this music, driving evil spirits away and allowing the people to worship God. I've seen it, and thank Him for it.

But I feel that our music sometimes gets too loud and rocky. But as a sister and as a fellow musician, I don't feel like I have a right to bring this up. Especially when the cause of the rocky-ness...and the loundness... is not always the drums. I just cannot--even as a musician--criticize others in their efforts to praise God.

I cannot support music that is without the life of God behind it, but niether do I support music that is plain-out rock'n'roll--with words slapped on the top to discuise or make it into Christain music. Satan does use this trick to pull Christians away from their Heavenly Father. We can't simply forget that Lucifer was a songleader in Heaven.

I guess my point is this: in a body of believers where the Holy Ghost lives, he will bring your life and your talents in subjection to His word. It may take time to bring the complete work about, but it will come. And while the Holy Ghost has never condoned a "Rockin' Church", neither has He abided starch. I think that's one reason that we all love to hear Bro. Branham sing. It's because it was just plain-out, heart-felt praise to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

God Bless you All!

[Unregistered]

edit: This was posted by DMCNUSA - he just forgot to log in.

Dear brother,
Thank you for your comments and questions. This exactly the kind of response I had hoped to get. I wish to encourage an open dialogue (forum chat in this case) so that we can all put our music under the microscope of spiritual discernment. Please keep in mind, that I am never talking about any one person in particular, but everyone in general! *NOTE I had previously used the word '...more professional'. Poor choice of words. I should have written, more WORLDLY less spiritual .

1. In my opinion whether a singer(s) does or doesn't make money from 'their ministry' has absolutely nothing to do with their music being more/less spiritual. I would assume the more professional you are the better chance you would have of at least breaking even, as you put it.
BUT, that is not my point.
Less spiritual means - feeling the Holy Spirit less.
There is less of a Holy annointing; less of a blessing to ones' soul or spirit; less encouragement, teaching, edifying, uplifting or admonishment; less of a praise to God; less harmony with Scripture; less directed toward God.
More worldly (see NOTE above) means - Not separated from the worldly styles (i.e. overly artistic, sensual, put on, artificial, breathy); more of an entertainment, performing for the praise of men; not sacred.

2. Obviously each point is interrelated, but singer elevated rather than God is important. Please remember that my opinions are based on what I perceive to be TRENDS or influences affecting our music. The singer himself or herself may not be guilty of this; but could be, of course. We all must be careful not to elevate someone because they can sing well. We should be uplifting Christ in the singer. One key to help in this is, when the singer is done, is the listener thinking - "What a great singer." or "What a great God." Did God use the singer/musician, or did the singer/musician use God, so-to-speak, for his or her purpose. In other words, are we the microphone for God to "speak" through. Is God using the talent, or am I? I am not saying, however, that our singing and instrumentation should not be the very best we can make it. More often than not, poor singing or unskilled musicians distract from the message.

3. Simplicity lacking has come about by our mimicking or imitation of music and singers of popular culture. I'm also referring to our lack of simplicity in Spirit. Too much put on. Too much artificial. Too much trying to sound like someone else. We should be singing in spiritual humility. We should not be performing. I think we should check our motive and objective to ensure we do not have an entertainment mindset.

4. The chorus versus hymns point means - we are losing the old hymns. There are wonderful, scriptural truths to be gotten from these hymns. Here is an excercise: Go read the text of the hymns. They are messages; they are poetic! They surely point the singer/listener to God or the Scripture. Many newer choruses are sensual and concentrate on self.

5. Cultural influences is a tough one. This does not only refer to the music of different "lands" but the influence popular culture has on our music. We know that each culture has its own music. This diversity in music is decreasing, however, because of rapid travel and mass communication. I think we should be who God made us. We should be genuine.

May God bless you.

[JoeC]

All I can say for sure is that the Holy Spirit can and has worked through this music, driving evil spirits away and allowing the people to worship God. I've seen it, and thank Him for it.

Well put. I believe that is the test for godly music. Is it delivering you? Is it freeing you up to worship God? Is it preparing your heart for the Word? Is it encouraging you? Do you go away with a joy in your heart, a bounce in your step and your heart surging with your love for God?

Now, who can come up with some tell-tale signs of ungodly music?

As for unregistered's post, whom I am assuming is DMCNUSA, there are some good points in there and some which I want to mull over for a while to find where I stand on it before I reply to the post. Will post again soon :)

[DMCNCUSA]

...I accidentaly posted... as UNREGISTERED... sorry.

[All4Jesus]

That's nothing but the truth. Amen
:thumbup:

[blessed]

I think that most ppl will agree that our music has gotten a bit wordly i don't think it was intentional though, Bro Branham always emphasised on the old time music ....there is just something about it that creates a sacred atmosphere .. there is the difference with a nice feeling and the true anointing of the Lord.

[Christian-Samurai]

I have a question regarding #5. Pop culture as you put it is largly the generation of this "worldly" american generation. Our culture has fast been spreading its seeds among the other nations and cultures for sometime now. Rock n Roll started in our nation and has broken off into other forms and each form getting worse than the next. This worldly infulence has spread to the ends of the earth and you can see it in youth and peoples of all nations that follow, the american trend.

What I dont see is the real truth behind the reasoning for "Cultural influences" is. If you are saying that so called "christian" singers are following the trends of the world because all their music is starting to sound the same then, I can agree. But I cant agree with saying that God's people's music is starting to lose their diversity. We are one nation under God our father. Sure on this earth we grow up in different parts and we have different languages and come from different back grounds but we are still all one people under our Lord.

Are you saying that our music should only be culturely influanced? each one should only have their own way to sing their praises to our king? They can not sing the same songs that praise him as those in the same body of christ from another country? Now I am not saying we all need to be the same, and diversity in our praises and songs are certianly welcomed but do dont thing we can class them as a race thing. This can only be an idividual thing. If a believer grows up in china and happens to like the Celtic praise style or black gospel as joe has mentioned I dont think it would be wrong for him to create songs in this way. It is how he connects to God through his praise. He is still himself and just because he is chinese doesnt mean he is any less chinese for singing this way.

Blame the world for its oneness in UnGodlyness in fashion and music, how its crossed the music gaps to make one giant evil empire. Are you seeing a mix in styles of truely Godly music or in styles that the world and "culture" has setup around us. Celtic praise style or black gospel are labels for styles that grew out the areas and peoples in them. In all reality there is only one style and that is Gods. You really cant put a label on what "style" a person has if he is singing from his heart to our maker. I know a few deaf people who sing with their hands. Is this now the deaf style, or is it the style that a Brother and sister of God are using to express their love for our Father. My brother is hearing and he can speak sign language and enjoys singing with his hands when he is among deaf believers to make them feel included. Should he not do this because he is hearing he should only be himself who God made him and not sing in "the deaf style".

Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands, the bible says, it doesnt say you have to sing perfect or in a style based on your own "culture". When deaf people sign sometimes they try to say the words and it just comes out as a noise. ITs not something they can hear but if you say to that brother stop your making a noise that disturbing others, what are you saying to that brother? are you saying stop praising out God because you cant do it as well as others, I sure hope not.

The last thing I want to point out is this. God did put us in these different places. And he does like a varitiy of colors and peoples and songs, but that does not mean that he said we can only worship him in one way from the earthly land we came from. I dont believe that there is a loss in God's chosen peoples diversity of songs and music, I do believe that a lot of todays youth maybe getting lost in the so called "chirstian music" diversity of this world. God Is one God and we are his one people. Our "styles and diversities" of Songs are those joyful noises and thanksgivings from our hearts to show him how much we love him. Our cultural influences are those of God's children sharing among themselves the love of God in songs of praise that make their hearts sing.

Sharing words of woship in songs Is not causing there to be a loss of "diversity" among God's childern, if songs that sound similar to a style from a different place, than what the so called "style" originated from, and If its an inspired song of God, and it touches the hearts of his people and connects them to God, then I say let them sing his praises. Dont hold that from them just because it didnt originate in their own "lands". If you see a china man singing an american style song of worship and its moving him in the spirit of our Lord, and this offends you then you need to rethink your point of view.


May the Lord bless you all richly no matter where you are from. :)

[blessed]

wow that was long :D

[Christian-Samurai]

When you feel something on your heart no matter how long it takes sometime you just have to express it :)

[collegegirl]

I agree with blessed. LOL But I also think that you made some good points. There are times that I enjoy Celtic praise, or black gospel. Psalms just said to "make a joyful noise", not see who can sing the best. So, I bang away at the piano, and screech away. (not really) LOL :D

[Christian-Samurai]

:D lol funny thats how my brother plays his guitar also

[collegegirl]

You are soooo mean. :rolleyes: Don't worry, he'll get better. One of the instruments I love is the guitar. There is nothing like relaxing guitar music to sooth a ruffled spirit, or to calm down for night. I am a classical music lover, and I love it when Christian songs are put into classical form, such as a huge symphony, or in simple 2-3 instruments. That is what I enjoy the best.

[Christian-Samurai]

Of course he will get better. I love japanese Taiko music it really gets your blood going lol I also like movie instrumental music cause its not just music for itself it tells a story with many moods and tones, its just great

[collegegirl]

I totally agree. It is amazing just how much music can intensify a mood, or help change it.

[JoeC]

Any comments from DMC? I still haven't had time to forumlate an opinion on his last post. Hopefully I'll get that time soon.

[Christian-Samurai]

I havent seen him on yet. did you read up and see what the rest have post?

[blessed]

I think that there was a sister named Nellie Sanders (open for correction) who had given her life to the Lord and passed one night by those places where they had the dances and she stopped to listen and the next thing u know she was on a dance floor.......she eventually ended up by Bro Branham crying and hysterical because of what she had done when Bro Branham prayed for her a great big bat ( i think it was ) came out of her he was the Prince of music. There is an anointing on music that is not of God and as we can see clearly here where it comes from. In choosing my music i look at it this way if it is not exalting God then who?/

[DMCNCUSA]

Any comments from DMC? I still haven't had time to forumlate an opinion on his last post. Hopefully I'll get that time soon.

Dear JoeC,
Sorry, I've been busy. I work for a living! :time: :aaaah:
Will try to comment more on this, but music definitely affects the spirit and also the flesh. I enjoy many different types and styles of music, but when it comes to church and/or using music in praise or in worship, I'm VERY careful. It is too important. Don't want the wrong annointing causing the gentle Dove to take its flight. I assume you understand I'm referring to what Brother Branham said about the Holy Spirit being a gentleman and taking Its flight if we are manifesting the wrong spirit.
BTW, I liked your word "forumlate"! :)


I think that there was a sister named Nellie Sanders (open for correction) who had given her life to the Lord and passed one night by those places where they had the dances and she stopped to listen and the next thing u know she was on a dance floor.......she eventually ended up by Bro Branham crying and hysterical because of what she had done when Bro Branham prayed for her a great big bat ( i think it was ) came out of her he was the Prince of music. There is an anointing on music that is not of God and as we can see clearly here where it comes from. In choosing my music i look at it this way if it is not exalting God then who?/


Dear Sister Blessed,
I have just re-read this story in the message: THE.GREATEST.BATTLE.EVER.FOUGHT_ JEFF.IN V-3 N-11 SUNDAY_ 62-0311
VERY POWERFUL. Would recommend for everyone to read it...
For the past two years or so, I've been reading numerous authors on the subject of music and music history. There is nothing that can compare with what Brother Branham had to say on this subject, or most subjects for that matter. He was of course, THE vindicated voice of our age!
May we all digest more of this Word.
God bless you, my sister.

[FreeAtLast]

Thats right Blessed. We need to be real careful to what kind of music we are listening to.

[Snoopy]

Ah, I think I understand better now...

You are simply saying that when it comes to worship music we need to be VERY careful, but that we needn't worry so much about what we listen to for mere enjoyment (although we should not throw caution to the wind in this respect either).

[arrowhead]

I'm new to this chat room. I would like to bring a thought out. I hope that we can have a good talk about it. Brother Branham's quotes are the absolute in this matter. He mentioned time and time again that the Angel of the Lord loved those "old fashioned hymns". Why not just stay with the old fashioned hymns, and also new ones that fit the mold of those old fashioned hymns? This music argument is a denominational fight. This is not a grey area in the Message. Keep that modernistic feminish rock n' roll contemporary pop music out of the Message and stay in line.

[Christian-Samurai]

is there anything wrong with singing songs in the jewish style? do we have to sing only old fashioned western hymns? what about the africans?? is it ok for us to sing worship songs in their old fashion traditional way? How about the chinese? can we sing in their old ways??

I just want to know if we are only stuck to sing the old western fashion way of singing. and if so then when we visit our brethern in another country can we only sing our songs when they are singing theres?? hmm I agree we need to keep out the worldly influence of our music but, I dont agree with only one way of singing praises to God. He is a God of varity and look at all the kinds of instruments there are in the world.

What are your thoughts on the different kinds of instruments?? hmmm

[JoeC]

Why not just stay with the old fashioned hymns, and also new ones that fit the mold of those old fashioned hymns?...Keep that modernistic feminish rock n' roll contemporary pop music out of the Message and stay in line.

What do you mean when you say "new ones that fit the mold of the old fashioned hymns"? Mold in this sense is a very vague word. Do you mean the "spirit of"? In which case the debate circles around to what we've already covered - that there are songs that are unlike the old time gospel songs in their sound, but are nonetheless Holy Spirit inspired.

Perhaps you mean that we should stick to only the new songs that keep the "sound" or "musical structure" of the old time hymns? All I'm asking for is a clarification.

Also, after making that statement, you immediately go on to tell us to "Keep that modernistic feminish rock n' roll contemporary pop music out of the Message..." Now, of course we all know not to listen to the music we would consider "modernistic and feminish." If we just take that thought to the bank, none of us learn anything. We just classify our music outside of that description. So I'd like to ask for a clarification on this too. What, exactly (examples please), do you consider "modernistic and feminish"?

Also, in the way that you jump from "old time hymns" to "modernistic feminish" music, it would seem to imply that there is no middle ground between the two. You are either listening to and singing old time hymns and songs like them - or you are listening to "modernistic and feminish" music. Again, a clarification of what you meant when you said "new songs like them" would help out in this area. If you really mean only new songs that sound like the old ones with similar musical structure, then I'm afraid that you're only offering us two extremes. If you're okay with that, then let me know. We just need to know exactly what you are saying before we can decide whether or not we can agree with what you are saying.

[hollikins84]

Just wondering- what does feminish mean in this... uh... context?

[BroTrevor]

I'm rather careful when it comes to music. I believe that if David could cast out evil spirits by playing the right kind of music, then I'm sure evil spirits could come onto someone by playing the wrong kind of music.

That in itself should warrant the Word "careful" in regards to music.

That being said, I accept various "styles" of music. Different "cultures" have different ways. Now, I heard one minister say that on the radio that this certain culture dresses half naked and dances around the fire in the worship of the Lord. They are decieved obviously and not worshipping the Lord, or they'd be clothed. So when I say "cultures" are ok...bear in mind that it obviously must be scriptural.

Now, I'm kind of touchy when it comes to the issue of "old hymns only". So what someone is obviously saying when they say "just listen to the old hymns" is that they don't believe that the Holy Spirit can annoint anyone to write songs anymore. But didn't the Holy Spirit annoint the writers of the "old hymns" to write those songs? Is He not the same yesterday, today, and forever? So I believe that "new" songs are fine.

I listen to some songs that are done by "modern" Christian artists. After all, gifts and callings are without repentence. So just because they aren't "message" people doesn't mean they don't have a gift. That being said, I'm VERY selective about the songs...and probably only like 5% of the modern stuff. I think iTunes is great because I can download the single songs that I like which are few but there are some.

I agree that much "modern" music does glorify self...and much is very sensual. Try the spirits is what we need to do. We need to be good at trying the spirits.

I JOHN 4:1
1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I'm sure there's alot of "false worshippers" just like there are "false prophets"

Uhm... I would like to add, (not to be disentious, but for the purposes of well rounded discussion) that while I'm not a huge Jaqi V. fan as the original poster mentioned about, I did like the song "on my knees" and I personally am very happy that whether I'm alone or in a crowd, I can pray. I don't think that is "me" based...that's all about God. Because no matter where we are, He hears us...we don't have to be in Jerusalem only, or in church, or anywhere specific...we just have to be "In HIM".

Sorry for long post. Enjoying this forum already

-BroTrevor

[JoeC]

No need for apologies, your post was thoroughly enjoyable.

As far as the Jaci Velasquez song "On My Knees" (a.k.a. "I Get On My Knees") - you are right, it is a good song. From what I understand, Jaci has gotten really sensual in her style - so you really have to pick and chose. But really, that's the way it is with most modern singers these days. http://www.yqnews.org/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Mick_Mack89]

Which is way to true :mad:

[blessed]

that was one of the more enlightening post in this thread, thank you Bro Trevor

[Angelo]

indubitably...

[NeedGod]

very enlightening. i agree that we should let the spirit guide us. i was reading that first we get faith, then virtue, then knowledge. we should therefore let God enter us entirelly so we will have the knowledge of what is right or wrong. this way we will be able to distinguish between the two.

[AlanaH]

This is just my personal opinion, but here goes nothing...

This is a HUGE issue in our church. I have found that there are sevaral different opinions here, and here are most of them.

1. All music except the old hymns is bad and therefore, not to be sung. Christian Contemporary = Rock

2. Some of the new music is good, but remove the electric guitars and the drums completely before singing it. Remove electric guitars and drums completely from church music, they are part of rock and therefore bad instruments created by the devil himself.

3. Sort carefully through the new music and combine the singing of the good with the hymns and leave the rest to God.

4. Anything with a Christian title is ok....go for it.


I personally believe in the third point. I believe that God did not suddenly pull out his anointing at a certain date in history. After all, how old is old? And something else to consider: Fanny Crosby (just to name someone) was considered "contemporary" in her day. She wrote things that made the people of her day gasp in shock.
If it is true that all but old songs and believer-written are completely unanointed, I bring yet another point to the table.
What if the "believer-written" song is not written by a true believer? How many times have we seen a believer write an awesome song, but not turn out to be the kind of believer that we could be proud of...
So what happens to the song? Is it discarded as unsingable just because the "believer" wasn't really one?

[joris]

If it is true that all but old songs and believer-written are completely unanointed, I bring yet another point to the table.
What if the "believer-written" song is not written by a true believer? How many times have we seen a believer write an awesome song, but not turn out to be the kind of believer that we could be proud of...what exactly do you mean by a believer we could be proud of? :y10:

[BroTrevor]

what exactly do you mean by a believer we could be proud of? :y10:

I believe she's referring to someone who was in the church, seemed like a great believer, wrote a great song, and a couple years later, falls away...runs out into the world and is never seen in church again.

or something like that.

[Sara]

So far we have agreed with DMCNUSA that so-called Christian music is on the downward slide, but his point was that Message music is going astray.

Now, DMCNUSA, I have to ask you to clarify your observations, as I just disagree with a lot of your points and it's probably because I don't see where you're coming from. I'll go through it point by point and maybe we can clear up any misconceptions I have of the point you are making.

1. Music... becoming less spiritual and more professional.

Because you're concern is with the "current tredns within message music" I assume you are thinking of some specific group of singers. I have to ask "Who?" I know of no singers in the message even making money from their singing. All the cases I know of are purely ministry based and they're lucky if they even break even.

2. Singer elavated... not God.

This is a similar arguement to the first. I have to again ask "Who?" Most of the "professional" message singers (e.g. those who make a ministry of it - not that they make money from it) I know of are really quite humble. The ones that are not are usually youth who are growing in grace and learning how to submit themselves and their gift to God.

3. Simplicity lacking.

I just don't know where you're coming from on this. Simplicity in music? In verse? In worship?

4. Choruses are being used more than hymns.

You seem to think this is bad. I grant you that simple choruses like

Oh the love of God
How Great the Love of God
Oh the love of God
Oh the love of God

are not ideal. I much prefer something that conveys the feelings of the heart - and that takes some poetry.

But I'm also confused - do you mean old hymns vs. modern choruses - or are you merely unsatisfied with not singing the whole song?

5. Cultural influences

I fail to see where cultural music is a problem when worshipping God. I enjoy Celtic praise, black gospel, Jamaican, as well as typical european/american music.

On the flip side, I am not likely to enjoy a German praise service (they're a bit starchy), adn they're are not likely to enjoy black gospel.

Now, do I misunderstand you? If you could clear up some points I'd be most appreciative.

Yes, i agree with Joe. I was at Believer's Youth Camp this year and the theme was "Making a Melody in Your Heart." Many brothers and sisters, such as brother Terry Tidwell and brother Paul LaFontaine were invited to share their testimony and a little bit about what inspires them to write music. As far as i'm concerned... their motive and objective is simply to point people to Christ and a closer relationship with Him. I have to go, or else i would continue this... but. Yes, i agree with Joe. WHO are you talking about???

:chris:

[marichino_freedom]

This is just my personal opinion, but here goes nothing...

This is a HUGE issue in our church. I have found that there are sevaral different opinions here, and here are most of them.

1. All music except the old hymns is bad and therefore, not to be sung. Christian Contemporary = Rock

2. Some of the new music is good, but remove the electric guitars and the drums completely before singing it. Remove electric guitars and drums completely from church music, they are part of rock and therefore bad instruments created by the devil himself.

3. Sort carefully through the new music and combine the singing of the good with the hymns and leave the rest to God.

4. Anything with a Christian title is ok....go for it.


I personally believe in the third point. I believe that God did not suddenly pull out his anointing at a certain date in history. After all, how old is old? And something else to consider: Fanny Crosby (just to name someone) was considered "contemporary" in her day. She wrote things that made the people of her day gasp in shock.
If it is true that all but old songs and believer-written are completely unanointed, I bring yet another point to the table.
What if the "believer-written" song is not written by a true believer? How many times have we seen a believer write an awesome song, but not turn out to be the kind of believer that we could be proud of...
So what happens to the song? Is it discarded as unsingable just because the "believer" wasn't really one?



You're points number one and number 4 seem to contradict one another. And as for point number two: I disagree. If one is making a joyful noise unto the Lord, he or she could be banging on pots and pans for all I care. I happen to play a drum in church. An African Djembe drum to be precise. It is used for worship (and believe me there is nothing Rocky about it-it is used for a simple beat or two).

[BroTrevor]

You're points number one and number 4 seem to contradict one another.

I don't think she was making points, I think she was pointing out "schools of thought" on music.

[HotShot53]

I don't think she was making points, I think she was pointing out "schools of thought" on music.

Exactly... the points were supposed to be different from each other.

[marichino_freedom]

ahhh....i see that now. sorry, i was half asleep when i wrote that

[Angelo]

My friend Solomon, I think he quoted it that, "There is no such thing as Christian music, but there are Christian songs." Still thinking about it, and will talk about it with him when the oppurtunity comes.

I believe Lucifer was the best musician there is, and all the expertise when it comes to worshipping was in him. So that means he knows all about it. The only trouble was that he fell from it.

[joris]

I believe Lucifer was the best musician there is, and all the expertise when it comes to worshipping was in him. So that means he knows all about it. The only trouble was that he fell from it.according to some preaching I heard, much of today's (non-christian) popular music have a lot of twists to manipulate - showing how satan twisted the use of music

[azurity]

Wow, did I really just come across a 5-page thread that is still on the original topic? I'm in shock!

Interesting reading. I really don't have alot to say in this area, but there's a question I want to bring up, about drums.


2. Some of the new music is good, but remove the electric guitars and the drums completely before singing it. Remove electric guitars and drums completely from church music, they are part of rock and therefore bad instruments created by the devil himself.

She does have a point. When I was in Ohio (Jezz, what's Bec's church called) the brother preached about music, drums, electric guitar... even country & western. He had alot of quotes & research, and said how you had to look at the history behind it all. Drums come from African heathenism, etc. It reminded me of an email I received back in March:

In April 1990, a Christian from Zimbabwe, Africa, arrived for his first visit to the United States. He is a native missionary under the Awana Youth Association.

When he turned on a Christian radio station and listened to the music, he was shocked. Here is his report:

"I am very sensitive to the beat in music, because when I was a boy, I played the drums in our village worship rituals. The beat that I played on the drum was to get the demon spirits into the people. When I became a Christian, I rejected this kind of beat because I realized how damaging it was. When I turned on a Christian radio station in the United States, I was shocked. The same beat that I used to play to call up the evil spirits is in the music I heard on the Christian station"

- Stephen Maphosah, Zimbabwe, Africa

and:

It was in the early 1970`s when my sisters arrived in Kalamantan, Barat, Indonesia, where our parents are serving as missionaires with R.E.M.U. International with them they had brought a contempory Christian record which was the "In thing" in Canada they said.

They were playing the record one evening, when an older national Christian stopped by the door to my sister`s astonishment his immediate question was, "Why are you playing witch doctor`s music, by which they call on Satan ?"

To the national who had left the old heathen practices which included the witch doctor, it was hard to explain why Christian young people in the churches who had sent ouit the missionary to teach them the way of salvation and seperation from the world, could even begin to listen to that kind of music.

I was there when this incident happened and am writing now to verify it.

Jim Walkington. (Sirname may be mis spelt.)

I have been in chuches with only a piano, or only guitars, as well as churches with the full orchastra & drums. I really don't have an opinion on it, because I have heard all the pro-use of drums as well, and have quite a bit of music that has drums in it. (I'm not talking about anything heavy hear, just like instrumental that has a background beat, etc)

How does everyone else feel about this one?

[JoeC]

The beat is implicit in any music, with or without drums. I believe it's entirely the way the song is played and composed. I don't see any musical istrument being evil in and of itself.

[BroTrevor]

The beat is implicit in any music, with or without drums. I believe it's entirely the way the song is played and composed. I don't see any musical istrument being evil in and of itself.

I'm in agreement with this I believe.

There is a right way...and a wrong way.

[marichino_freedom]

heehee...

I wish i knew the "right way". I'm still learning and my beat gets thrown off a lot (that is if I have one to begin with)

In all honesty though, I agree; it's all about how it's being used and what it's being used for.

[azurity]

The beat is implicit in any music, with or without drums. I believe it's entirely the way the song is played and composed. I don't see any musical istrument being evil in and of itself.
I think that's exactly right. I don't necessarily think drums are bad. Even a guitar depends alot on beat. Clapping your hands is also a strong beat. And any instrument can be used for good or bad.

But those emails made me wonder, if rhythem really can be used to call up evil spirits, what kind of music, or beat, has such a negative affect on our spirits? And how would we know the difference?

[AlanaH]

I don't see any musical istrument being evil in and of itself.

Exactly. Which brings up my one point of thought on my earlier post. As one user stated, I am simply stating the particular schools of thought that I have run across in my short career as a Message musician.
Official disclaimer: I do not support all of the various points that I stated in my previous post. As one user also stated, many of them contradict each other drastically, and they are not intended to cause confusion.

[quote=azurity] She does have a point.

I am not condoning the particular point of view that I mentioned, I am simply mentioning it.

Last thing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by joris
what exactly do you mean by a believer we could be proud of? :y10:


[I believe she's referring to someone who was in the church, seemed like a great believer, wrote a great song, and a couple years later, falls away...runs out into the world and is never seen in church again.

or something like that.]


Exactly my point.